A bullet is faster than a drone! Why is it too early to write off infantry weapons? “Military Dialogues” PREMIERE

Speaker 1

Greetings, friends! My name is Ivan and I will try to conduct dialogues here on the military site. This is my first attempt, so if it turns out poorly, write about it in the comments; we will read it and something can be done about it. For example, skip me with this story. Today we will talk with Andriy Maruga, the head of the digital artillery direction of the "Come Back Alive" fund. We will talk about such a thing as infantry weapons and their role in modern war. A fairly interesting topic, in my opinion. Why? Because according to various data, around 80% of all strikes are carried out by drones, directly on the line of combat engagement and even, if we are talking about the destruction of aerial targets. But it is obvious that classical weapons have not gone anywhere and are unlikely to go anywhere in the coming decades; their role has simply changed. Accordingly, first of all, I want to ask you what light infantry weapons are and what they are like. Literally, what is it?

Speaker 2

Light infantry weaponry, also called collective weaponry. Why is it called collective? Because, if it is a tripod-mounted machine gun, large-caliber, like the Browning M2, .50 caliber, a good machine gun. And if, for example, a unit is moving, then two carry the machine gun, two carry the tripod, and ten carry, for example, the ammunition for it. In other words, everyone carries it. Meaning, you cannot say that it is the machine gunner's machine gun, whereas everyone has their own. That is why it is called collective weaponry, because it works in the interests of the unit—the platoon, the company. There is platoon weaponry, company weaponry. For instance, the 82mm is a company mortar, the 120mm is a battalion mortar. Well, that's how it went with the development of these weapons. This is weaponry that is directly closest to the adversary, closest to the enemy. And it is the one that, for example, is the first to enter the fight, to start working. Now, I am saying that the war has changed—drones, FPVs—but there are rains, there are fogs, so training, preparation, and procurement continue regardless. No one in the army gives up these things because they are classics, and when you have a large-caliber machine gun at hand, it is somehow easier to breathe. In other words, it is what the soldier has, what he can use immediately, and it is not artillery, which needs to move to a position or have that position heavily fortified; time is needed for deployment, for aiming, and for striking the target.

Speaker 1

That is, it's what is at hand, it's just not a firearm.

Speaker 2

If, for example, we take that same Browning, the BMP one, basically it's a BMP [one], it destroys it at 800 meters. That is, one cannot say that it is, for example, a very bad weapon; it is a good one. The only thing is that now there are such demarcation lines, where there are 8, 10, 12 kilometers, and it is impossible to bring this collective weapon there, or they bring in robotic complexes. If there is an opportunity, they install it; if not, they don't. This means that it's more about drone work there, the borders—there in Sumy, Chernihiv, or the South, where the Dnipro is—that is where it's relevant. Closest… no, since the 23rd year we did it, we implemented firing from that same Browning ballistically via a calculator, well, at 5 kilometers. That is, in principle, it has already slightly changed the capabilities for using collective weapons, when the Browning is not on the front line, for example, there, a kilometer

Speaker 1

-thirty.

Speaker 2

A bit of a stretch, right? Yes, and in principle, there are good results, and it is currently being used in some sectors. And it is a pretty good thing that it has a recoiling barrel; it can be hidden, buried, or camouflaged there. And, in principle, no one will look for a machine gun somewhere, say, three and a half kilometers away. That is, they look for it somewhere here, but it could be anywhere. This, so to speak, simplifies the work for our units and makes it difficult for the enemy. Regarding the MK-19, we had a project on the MR-3 sight, where sights were installed on them, and it was done for the AGS tripod with separate aiming. And, in principle, the soldier can now normally, without compasses, and more or less to the right and left, already have the ability to aim clearly and accurately and conduct fire. This is now, in principle, available, and if there are requests, they call, they write. That is, there is full training and supply. SPG is used little, and there is little ammunition. And as for the use, the last time there was training and there was feedback. Well, that's the South, Dnipro. Where the plains are, right? Well, there, where the Dnipro is, towards the enemy, that one can… well, in principle, they work there… Back in '17, they learned to shoot SPG in Launkove, there, up to six kilometers. There 6-6-2, it also flies, changing the angle, non-traditional use. Where it is possible to work closer on the shore, they work, well, standardly with it. That is, the last time I see that it was used more or less widely was in the South. Light machine guns, obviously, are like handheld or personal weapons. They are indispensable; they are at all positions. These are PKM and Minimi. And this, in principle, too. A machine gunner is a respected person in the infantry. Usually, he must be strong and calm. Therefore, the role of collective weapons should never be dismissed, because it was, it is, and it will be for some time. I don't know if intelligence is moving toward other technologies; I wouldn't be surprised if we move toward some kind of Star Wars with such steps.

Speaker 1

Well, actually, I think that we are now in the process of rethinking the role of traditional types of weaponry. And this is something that has happened more than once, actually, in the history of wars, and the same goes for rockets. They were invented as far back as the end of the 19th century. Like, they just later transformed into mortars, which were called mortars. And then what was conditionally called rockets at the beginning of the 19th century became rocket launchers. Things that we know, for example, like Grads. It just transforms, the role changes, some things like that change. But I wanted to ask you, please, tell me about the specifics of your work. What does digital artillery mean?

Speaker 2

Well, this started back in '15-'16, when the idea emerged that we have a bunch of Soviet weapons, BMPs, tanks, and all those things. Everything needed to be digitized, figured out. They invited me to a software development group for armor, well, these ballistic calculators. And we started. For example, an infantry unit, well, a motorized infantry unit with BMPs, they have SPG, AGS, BMP-1, BMP-2. That is, this weaponry, which is used in these operations, is available. But then we had a positional war. And a question arose, drones and reconnaissance began to appear. And the question of firing or anticipating the enemy's actions arose. But there is mathematics, there is ballistics, that at a certain angle, under certain conditions, a shell behaves in such a way, flies along such a trajectory, has such-and-such deviations. Well, this is ordinary artillery science. And, in principle, this application was developed, which allows a soldier to be quickly trained, who just has to select a point on the map where they need to go, and get the numbers by which they need, for example, to turn the turret, and the angle at which they should raise the turret.

Speaker 1

That is, actually, it's not even digitization, but work with old artillery tables, simply converted into digital form.

Speaker 2

Yes, but, well, understand, when back in 2014 I still had to, then you have the range, there is a wind correction, an average wind correction. You had to calculate, you looked at the trajectory height, you have a special table that every 200 meters the wind speed changes by so many meters per second, the direction changes by so many, you have a height, for example, 800 meters, you take the data for 200, 400, 600, 800, divide by 4, get the average value for the wind, for direction, for speed, exactly the same for temperature.

Speaker 1

You need to know the point, what the wind is like at your point. You need to know the surface wind. The surface wind, yes.

Speaker 2

Over the years of artillery development, it is thus called metodo-medium, that, if you have seen probes, aerial

Speaker 1

cool,

Speaker 2

so it is measured by altitudes: temperature, pressure, wind speed, and wind direction. But they introduced a method-average, that under certain conditions—take wind, for example—if you open, for instance, sites for pilots, "Uaforikas," and there is a wind profile, and wind by altitude. You can even see how it changes on average by altitude, how much it changes its direction. But this is a method-average forecast; if calculations were being done, it would be without any tablets. But you had to take all these average values from these eight columns and reduce them to two figures. The correction for direction and the correction for distance. And you sit there with a pen, a notebook or phone, a calculator, calculating, and you have a couple of minutes, and after two minutes, you already start hearing shouting in the radio with expressions like "You!" and "Why is it taking so long?". That is, an artilleryman—

Speaker 1

Is he a sort of engineer? Well, yes. Whose work cannot simply be calculated. I mean, I

Speaker 2

I'm telling you how it was. And I'm telling you that when you have an electronic gadget, it calculates all this in milliseconds. Your task is simply to enter the wind like this, the particle temperature, and the pressure like this. Then it [does] all this for you

Speaker 1

will it calculate? Well, I'll tell you honestly, I was there a very, very long time ago, but I was present at one of the training sessions conducted by Andriy. It was training for tank crews, without opening fire, but I was impressed by how simply the guys climb onto the tank turret, they give a tablet to the gunner, if I'm not mistaken, the gunner simply selects the point with his finger where he needs to fire, and everything there is simply somehow magically calculated.

Speaker 2

Well, regarding tanks, yes, regarding tanks, that's an old story for us, I have a friend there, an acquaintance who is a manufacturer, once back then on a BMP one we

Speaker 1

thought up

Speaker 2

electronic side level, but then in 1922, well, what was the problem with the tank? What was the problem for the tank crews? The pitch itself; if, for example, the tank is tilted to the right, it has no mechanisms for leveling the sights, the tank is tilted to the right, he raises the gun, and the gun shifts to the right.

Speaker 1

This is called aligning the barrel with the line of sight. Yes, yes, because you see, the gun itself is not on a suspension.

Speaker 2

In artillery, there is a formula for calculating the correction for the bore axis deviation from the line of sight. Well, meaning, a battery senior officer, having play in the trunnions, if the barrel is constantly tilted to the right, he could use this formula to calculate that at such-and-such an elevation angle, the barrel would deviate by such-and-such thousandths. Well, there is such a long, beautiful formula. I gave this formula to the manufacturer of these side levels. I said, is it possible to somehow embed this formula, so that this side level, which measured the angle, measured the tilt and immediately wrote at the bottom how much the error would be. Because forcing a tank crewman—even though the side tilt of the gun was implemented via software on a tablet—he might, according to the measurement, even using a mobile phone, raised the gun, entered

Speaker 1

side bend, and

Speaker 2

it drew an amendment. No, he this to do

Speaker 1

will not be.

Speaker 2

He will fire the first and second, then under a drone, for correction. It's also simpler. The fact that it's 5 thousand dollars more expensive is not important. And when in '22, I think, we reworked these levels, made standard mounts for Soviet tanks, made it so that when the gunner moves into position, firing from closed positions, raises the gun, he measures the machine's tilt, the elevation angle, and at the bottom it says "Kolya, turn the turret left by 8 divisions," that's what they do. And, meaning, so you understand, if the tank has a tilt of 3 degrees, then at 10 kilometers the shell's deviation from the target is about 150-160 meters. A lot. Everything flies way off. And then we removed this error, and so you understand, these levels, they are still relevant now, because people write directly to the manufacturer; their price, so you understand, a crew spends more on cigarettes in a month. That is, the price is small, and they will buy them. They are now on practically all tanks.

Speaker 1

Let's continue about the specifics of the work. Do I understand correctly that besides being a co-author of a digital ballistic calculator, you also provide training for military personnel? So, let's talk about that. Who do you train? Is it at the stage of professional training, or something like advanced training? Let's go.

Speaker 2

…with training centers, and with professional training, and we work directly, we try to work from the brigade level, because when you arrive at one battalion and distribute things nicely, tomorrow a third one starts calling you, and the day after tomorrow a fourth. So, please, give me some combat training officer, we will speak with him, and basically we bring the equipment, we bring all the sights, devices for grenade launchers, we bring everything, conduct training, we agree on how many assets you have there, how many you need, we bring all of this, conduct training, and simply hand it over. And basically the feedback is constantly positive, people are thankful, and it levels the situation in many sectors, because when you take a shot and it hits where it's supposed to, well that's… Well, that's a quick dopamine hit, because people see the result,

Speaker 1

You see the result of your work.

Speaker 2

Yes, seeing the target and hitting it is professionalism, but not seeing and hitting it is already art.

Speaker 1

Andriy Fedorovych, yes, yes.

Speaker 2

This is already an art, yes. That is why we are working, and for example, whether it is drones or FPVs, but in principle, the work is not yet finished. Therefore, we are working on this.

Speaker 1

You've already told me a bit about the nomenclature you work with, with the MK-19, SPG,

Speaker 2

there, large-caliber

Speaker 1

Machine guns. I would like to ask you about how widespread Soviet nomenclature still is, whether it is used, and if it is used, then specifically what, and what interests me even more, on what ammunition?

Speaker 2

Well, it's used, if it's small arms, well, it's obvious what—Kalashs, pokemons, but Minimis, machine guns, are very popular. Of the grenade launchers, I hardly see any AGSs now. Everyone uses the MK-19. Because there is a small amount of ammunition for the AGS, but the syrokovka is made by many countries of the world. And the Germans make them, and European countries, and America. This is regarding mounted grenade launchers. And as for heavy machine guns, I haven't seen any Dashkas in the last year. Well, mostly Brownings. Because it is a very powerful and good weapon. Although it's 100 years old. Well,

Speaker 1

Actually, the DShK is a bit younger. Younger, younger, younger. I wanted to ask, if, for example, comparing the Browning M1918 or M2, and the DShK or

Speaker 2

NSVT, can it be compared? No, that one has a Cossack barrel, the recoil there is small, but the NSVT is a Dashka, well, the recoil is just insane. It's already uncomfortable. In my opinion, the Browning is much better. For me personally. Maybe there are admirers of the DShK, NSVT, but for me, the Browning is much better. And what about mortars? What about mortars? Mortars were, are, and probably will be. Mortars are also trench weapons, but in the conditions of modern war they are dug in, buried and hidden deep in the ground. Where they are dug in, hidden, that's where they operate. Because a mortar on the ground now, unfortunately, doesn't last long. Therefore, the mortar crews are where they still remain, because in areas like Kostyantynivka, there is no line as such now, and the grey zone is large. It's clear that the use of these light mortars there is not relevant.

Speaker 1

Even the '60s?

Speaker 2

Well, 60 is what you have on your shoulders

Speaker 1

you wear, it can be worn. The 60th is the same,

Speaker 2

like a grenade launcher or a crew-served weapon that you can carry. But as for application, it is more, I want to say, a defensive weapon. As the war has shown, when we are on the move, when we are on the offensive, it is relevant for us. As soon as we go on the defensive, we immediately switch to another type of weapon. Well, that is how the war dictates the rules. Therefore, as long as the active phase of the war lasts—offensives, the expansion of gray zones or kill zones—it works in one mode. As soon as we stop somewhere for a long period, having stayed, dug in, entrenched, then it can be moved there. And when to bring up the heavy-caliber piece and dig in the mortar. Because we have already been standing in that spot for half a year, we are dug in.

Speaker 1

But in any case, because of this very wide kill zone, even this crew-served infantry weapon is positioned quite far back.

Speaker 2

Well, where there is the possibility of logistics, where there is no possibility of logistics. Well, it all depends on how logistics can operate. If there is no possibility to transport there

Speaker 1

ammunition, then there is some sense. It can be taken there. But if you don't have the opportunity

Speaker 2

transport ammunition,

Speaker 1

so put it there.

Speaker 2

So, an acquaintance of mine, Votus, comes to me and says, "No, well, we have a Browning, but we… It's just sitting there, but it's a weapon of last resort." Meaning, it's at the position and he says, we aren't really revealing it, but it's a weapon of last resort. That's when, you know, we'll use it for the first and last time. Mortars, as I say, the whole war dictates its own rules, whether it's logistics, capability, or the terrain—you know, forests, swamps, mud, urban areas. Well, basically, there are many factors here, so war forces one to learn, to invent, and to learn newer, newer, newer methods. Well, thank God, everyone is doing well with us. Tell me about mortar mines.

Speaker 1

I also remember your very old story about how you re-measured the weight of mines and a difference emerged among the six mines, there, hundreds of grams from the first to the last, and that means that the weights must be different.

Speaker 2

No, well, those were the JFO times, you know, the ceasefire, all those things. You see, if you could even open fire there, you had the chance to throw maybe two, well, three maximum, and believe me, that was all you held,

Speaker 1

or got caught,

Speaker 2

and then just disappear somewhere, so that no one…

Speaker 1

threw. Well, now from the perspective of using mortars, I think that the situation hasn't changed much in the sense that you will be spotted very quickly, even a dug-in mortar, it

Speaker 2

…that this target is in Pivikha. But it's not buried; there's already a lid lying on top, you understand. The lid there opens, and it didn't shoot, the lid either rolls back or slides off, meaning it's completely covered there, and after working, the personnel went into shelter, meaning that mortar still needs to be found and hit. Yes, we just re-weighed the shells, the powder, we weighed them, sometimes counted weight marks, we re-weighed all the shells, calculated—well, if, for example, one weight mark is a correction of 20 meters, and I have half a weight mark, then they recalculated that instead of adding 20 meters, we should add 12; meaning, all of this was calculated down to such subtleties, because we had to hit it just like that.

Speaker 1

Well, yes, in a way, people like you made a mortar that was highly damaging to health. Well, these are the kind of

Speaker 2

people like Kiril Kirilovich, who called at 11 o'clock at night, said, I need to hit one spot. And right then they made this table of weight marks, I remember back then, they made it in Excel, so that you put in the weight of the mine, and it gave you the exact weight mark, and corrections, all those things. Yes, and then Kiril Kirilovich sends a video where 20 mines fall in a 5×5 meter square. He says, Fedorovich, that's it, it works, and then it was all programmed in, and in the tablet you enter weight mark 265, and it adjusted the sight. Back then the war forced us to do this, we did it, we adapted to it, there were such things. Well, obviously, with our Ukrainian mines—this was still when I was there—a beautiful mine, nicely painted, weight mark two plus, I weigh it, and it's actually two minus. I realize that someone just wrote it randomly. Meaning we saw that if it was some kind of restored Ukrainian mine, we automatically re-weighed everything, because we understood that everything written on it was just pulled out of thin air. And we would then write its real weight mark on that mine with a marker, because if it says two plus, but it's actually three minus, then… Well, it will fly,

Speaker 1

no idea where to.

Speaker 2

At 70-80 meters there will already be an overshoot, and for a 120mm mortar, that's quite a lot. And they are scarce.

Speaker 1

Those were the times. Times of shortage.

Speaker 2

times,

Speaker 2

Not

Speaker 1

I know how it is now, but…

Speaker 2

Yes, they are scarce

Speaker 1

times when

Speaker 2

If you have 20 shells there, then you're still a king. In '14, there weren't these shortages; there were still intact warehouses, Ichnia was there, and Kalynivka, and those other warehouses, they were all intact. Back then, in the battles for Donetsk Airport, [someone] would call every other day, "I need a thousand shells," and every other day they brought a thousand shells to the battery. That was normal. A battery is six mortars. Well, five were working. There were already five then, yes. Four were active, the fifth [was used] for some planned targets a couple of times a day. And that was per day, per day and a half, this thousand shells.

Speaker 1

So there was such a round count on the barrels,

Speaker 2

Yes,

Speaker 1

on… Like an orifice, probably. There

Speaker 2

The spotter had already fired tens of thousands when… I say, Vasya, right 0.15, and he didn't look through the sights, he just twisted the knobs like this. I check through the sights, indeed, it hadn't shifted by 0.15 thousandths. Well… they were already doing it without looking through the sights, already right, left, just doing it by hand, like cowboys, without aiming. A high volume of fire is a craft. This cannot be learned and this cannot be bought. I think,

Speaker 1

that people who dealt with miniguns and similar things, during the ATO and JFO times—it may sound not very good—but perhaps feel a little nostalgia. In the sense that you can't get that kind of firing now. Now even in PvP. Times in

Speaker 2

half, but already such… As I say, war, war is changing. I have a lot of friends who are mortarmen. One there, 12 years after the mortar, he switched to a drone, to the Bamboos, and he flies on this Starlink-thingy. These mines, which are now carried by drones, many mortarmen simply switched to drones. They all know the mines themselves, they just carry them by drones now and drop them. They say, "Whether I sent that mine like this, or like that…"

Speaker 1

I'm bringing it. After all, I

Speaker 2

I won't sit without work. Because there is no application. Very many mortar gunners have simply switched to drones; they carry the mines themselves. War is changing; he has a mortar. They have mortars,

Speaker 1

batteries, that's it. It's just standard.

Speaker 2

has

Speaker 1

But

Speaker 2

They have drones, they even work using drones. Because in this situation, he can work using drones. Many mortarmen are already using drones. That is how we know them.

Speaker 1

And since we've already touched upon this topic, tell me, for example, about how, in the conditions of FPV, of this advanced drone revolution, a mechanized battalion, for instance, generally conducts defensive or offensive combat, with all the nomenclature of weapons that are in the battalion. Suppose the battalion is on BMPs. If you know, of course.

Speaker 2

No, well, now BMPs are rarely used in the offensive, they are used more as taxis. Now MRAPs, Roshels, Kozaks, light armor — these are for delivering personnel to the drop-off point and then on foot. Because they are still armored vehicles. Have you even seen many of our armored vehicles in streams or videos? Well no, well, for a year already

Speaker 1

Probably since the 23rd. Well, maybe since the 24th already. Well, yes, basically, when both we and the Russians had significantly more. More drones,

Speaker 2

which is also in Rusnia, only there the tanks have ultramangals.

Speaker 1

Well, yes, it's clear that mechanized assaults, as of now, they, as phenomena, well, I won't say they've died, but they almost don't happen. But, well, the nomenclature of weaponry still exists. How? Well,

Speaker 2

In this case, tubed artillery is more involved. Because, well, 620 mortars can work during an offensive, during an assault, from some position there, from a temporary one. But again, it depends on the conditions, what the conditions are, what the terrain is like in order to plan all this. Sometime, I don't remember when this year, with one of the brigade commanders of the 80th, I won't name the name, I met with him once, and we talked, I asked him, so you have an assault of 20 people, right? I say, how many people are involved for these 20 people to storm a copse? That is, there is a unit with EW, long-range aviation, medium-range aviation, close-range aviation, FPV operators, medics, tubed artillery, mortars, close-range, then reserves, evacuation, logistics, so we started listing them with him, and how many did it come to? 350 people were involved. I personally asked the brigade commander, we counted 350 people, the two of us. He took the latest operation for an assault of 200 people, another 350 were involved. That is, when… the whole battalion is working.

Speaker 1

Well, essentially, yes. This is a battalion.

Speaker 2

That is, only 20 people went on the assault, while 350 were involved. That is, when we counted everyone. And under such conditions, he says, with such arrangements, almost 200 are gone. When you plan and do it like this, almost 200 are gone. That is, proper planning is already half the work.

Speaker 1

Well, you know about the rules

Speaker 2

Four Ps? Yes. Shall we not voice it?

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

And what's in Rusnya? What's in Rusnya? I can't read them for long, in my

Speaker 1

There is a lack of interviews. Well, maybe we can all just read. Maybe there is just some info from the field on how they use that same infantry weapon. Because at first glance, I wouldn't say that the FPV topic is not as developed, but still, they have advanced centers, like Rubicon, powerful guys. But overall, it looks like it is less developed for them after all.

Speaker 2

They use artillery mortars, they don't spare it, because they have a lot of it. They have a lot of it and very often these mortars appear in an unexpected place, it fires, it works until it is destroyed. Well, they'll destroy it somewhere, it will move to another spot. That is, they still have a use for it. There is quite a lot of it, no matter what, but it still causes harm. Because artillery, no matter what, is very unpleasant.

Speaker 1

One 152mm blank replacement, how many are in FTV?

Speaker 2

Yes, rain, fog, weather conditions when a drone cannot fly, this is an open road for the work of all mobile artillery units. Then you can calmly roll out, orient yourself, aim, work on planned targets, and calmly drive away. Because there is heavy fog, nobody really sees you. Regardless, rain, fog, and weather that is unsuitable for drones are, in principle, already work for artillery. As far as I remember, POV drones fly in bad weather, but for reconnaissance that flies far. Therefore, they are used quite actively, although, as I say, they have a lot of them, and they still have to work on it, and work. They make barrels, they make mortars, they make cannons; they have a full cycle, they have entire lines. Because, based on statistics, the impression you get is when you see how many of these barrels ours hit per day. Just take the statistics, only how many of their artillery units are destroyed per day. But the next day a new one is there, or a day later. That is, if they didn't make them or restore them, they would have run out by today, but they are being destroyed every day, simply by the dozens.

Speaker 1

Let's talk about the comparison of modern Ukrainian munitions, such as mortar rounds, and those from Soviet stocks, and those arriving via MTD. Or those purchased directly from abroad, meaning NATO ones.

Speaker 2

Well, NATO ammunition, they are not bad. They are not bad and there are no particular complaints about them, so we will examine the 120s.

Speaker 1

And there interchangeable mines for a Soviet mortar and

Speaker 2

NATO's. Yes, yes, yes. Mines for imported ones. Yes, imported, for example, that eastern bloc, there, in principle, if you take the Czechs, Bulgarians, the Soviet Union built combat factories there. They already have all these EM-82s – that's our Soviet 82mm. EM-120 – those are Soviet sleds. That is, in principle, the nomenclature of ammunition, well, they have their own, but they are for this caliber and they work normally. Back then, in '22-'23, or when we didn't have the drone war, all this saved us quite a bit and we got by on it. More of a problem at one time was with the Ukrainian ones, when there was some low-quality powder. That is, there was low-quality production powder, it was a story that went on for a month or two, then they dealt with it, the issue was resolved somehow, but, in my opinion, I don't remember how. As for the imported mines, well, in principle, there are good ones, there are slightly worse ones, but not to say they were too bad. Well, I know there were bad reviews for some Romanian 82s. The guys called them gypsy ones. That they flew somehow, hit how, all differently. Well, for example, the last time we had 40mm grenade launcher firing, and we were with the paratroopers, and they brought the remains from the position. Well, there were 5 Vogs in a belt, 10 Vogs, pieces of belts. And they were absolutely different. And we set up a LabRadar, which measured the muzzle velocity. So when the American ones were 433 or 431, the muzzle velocity changed within one meter per second. Well, maybe one or two meters per second between shots. When we took the German DM-121, I think my LabRadar froze. It didn't change at all. I thought it had stopped working for me. No, it was working, the velocity just didn't change. That's how precisely they are made. And we took the AR-383, which I think was of Bulgarian production or something. And I was even surprised because the muzzle velocity between shots differed by around 30 meters per second. And that's a spread of about 100 meters at a kilometer. That is, there, I get the impression that some gypsy sat there with the powder charge and just poured it with a spoon by eye. Because that's the quality. And that's how they fly. And you look at the statistics, there's 227 meters per second, and the next shot is 244 meters per second. It is absolutely impossible to hit with such rounds. I think this is

Speaker 1

much of which depends on the production culture.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes, yes. Because when you take the German one, the highest quality—these are the Germans—there is absolutely nothing to criticize. I'm telling you, with the German ones, you can hit right into the burrow. Very high-quality ammunition. And then there are some where you look and say, well guys, with this ammunition we just fire across the area. Left and right. Because it definitely won't fly where you want it to anyway.

Speaker 1

How

Speaker 2

hail. Yes,

Speaker 1

how

Speaker 2

with Grad, yes. And they say, we try not to take them, or take, or these, or these. Mainly, the 430A1 is currently in the troops. This is under mark

Speaker 1

19, correct?

Speaker 2

MK-19, yes, it is fragmentation-cumulative. That is, it is fragmentation and, in my opinion, there are 50 millimeters of armor.

Speaker 1

He burns through.

Speaker 2

Similarly with the mortar rounds, basically, there were moments when they would appear. For us, it happened that ammunition would appear, and then the tables for it would appear later. That is, we get ammunition and there is nothing for it. And the guys start to improvise, they assess it. "Yeah, by weight it's more similar to this one." We take the ballistics of this one, through the total V, we start [adjusting] the coefficients with the round in the initial velocity figure, we start adjusting it to something. We managed somehow, plus or minus, and then after a week, two, or three, the tables appear—the firing tables for this ammunition—and then they are implemented, and then everything settles down. I am saying that for about three or five types of ammunition, we got the ammunition first, and then the ballistics for it. Well, it's normal, as always. But while this was being sorted out,

Speaker 1

I

Speaker 2

I understand that about 70 percent of them were just placed somewhere out there in the field until they figured out how it works. And when the tables finally appeared, then everything changed a bit. Well, that was the kind of problem we had; when a new type of ammunition appeared, it was always a problem. They call me on the phone, "this mine, how do you fire it?" I say, "be careful with it." Oh, and there were also Indian mines. They are good, generally good, Indian mines.

Speaker 1

There, as the videos show, you know, in TikToks, Indian and Pakistani ones, how they sit there sobbing and making something, they remelt crankshafts and make a new crankshaft from them. Such faces.

Speaker 2

So I was surprised when a tank crewman tells me, no, I'll take the Indian ones

Speaker 1

I really liked the shells, they fly very well.

Speaker 2

I was really surprised that those Indian mines, and in general both the mines and tank shells, worked. Well, the shells.

Speaker 1

tank, because Indians are sitting on

Speaker 2

Russian tanks,

Speaker 1

Accordingly, they have the same

Speaker 2

ammunition. And their shells are quite decent; everything is well-made. So you have to give them credit.

Speaker 1

Well

Speaker 2

Unexpectedly. Unexpectedly, yes. I was also surprised by everything. They are yellow, so cool. About the Chinese. Or something.

Speaker 1

Is Chinese used here?

Speaker 2

At the KSP-inverters, where I am standing. At

Speaker 1

psycho efficiency, where I stand.

Speaker 2

Sort of, well, I'm not joking. What's Chinese? Half of every, or a part of every drone we have is Chinese.

Speaker 1

No,

Speaker 2

this

Speaker 1

Obviously, this is clear here. I would say it's not half, nor 90%, but significantly more. I am talking more about weaponry, military equipment, and ammunition. Which is also what I'm asking. I also have an acquaintance who came to me a couple of years ago and said, "Look, I have a Chinese guy here," in short, a person who has been engaged in import operations from China for a very long period of their life. He says, "I have this Chinese guy who can get anything you want, whether it's mortars, grenade launchers, or whatever." And I tell him, "Friend, don't get involved. Don't. Don't get involved, because you'll make it worse; forget about this Chinese guy of yours, you'll make it worse for the country." Because Ukraine will be slammed for it, if there is some purchase of Chinese weapons. So I'm curious, could something Chinese still somehow get through?

Speaker 2

In '23, I see in the news that the French detained a vessel carrying weapons for the Houthis in Yemen. And I see a bunch of mortars on the vessel, 82s. Meaning they took an 81mm mortar and bored it out to 82; that would do for the Houthis. And the Europeans detained this vessel. There were a lot of mortars there. Чем 19 is 82, чим 16 is 120. These were Iranian mortars they detained, they were all carrying them from Iran, but China is doing the same thing. Now, what was the point? That with the Iranian 82, it wasn't Chinese, no, it was Iranian. But what was the point? That it was a conversion from 81 to 82. And we—I don't remember which brigade it was—[found] that it fired 82mm Ukrainian mortar shells normally. So they ended up in Ukraine, these bored-out mortars? Yes, everything came to Ukraine. They, both the Europeans and the French, stopped it, but it all came to Ukraine. They wrote down for themselves that we helped.

Speaker 1

A billion for Ukraine

Speaker 2

dollars. In a month, yes. Well, where would Tiran weapons have come from in Ukraine?

Speaker 1

Well, yeah,

Speaker 2

Logical. Well, where did she get it from? Was it the Houthis transporting them there, stopping, and giving everything to us then? But the HAE-60 and other imported analogues, after the third shot, the mine would get stuck in the middle of the barrel. Well, he drops it in, and it's in the middle of the barrel. Meaning they made grooves on one side and on the other, and some chamfer there.

Speaker 1

Left in the middle.

Speaker 2

And all these mortars fired differently. They all had different muzzle velocities. I mean, as I understand it, as long as his freeze was normal in the morning, he filmed more; by evening the freeze was worse, probably filmed more. Because they all behaved differently this morning. And it was quite a weapon, seemingly well-made. But the guys struggled with it a bit, sometimes someone was lucky, and other times someone suffered with it. Either it didn't reach, or it overshot, or the mine got stuck. There were no Iranian ones with Chinese ones, but there were definitely Iranian ones. There were, and we had quite a few Iranian mortars. Well, interesting, I've never heard of this at all. But specifically, I mean, this is probably the indestructible one, the Finnish Tampella. It's heavy, but this Finnish mortar is very high quality. Tampella. A good 120 mortar, it's really powerful and very high quality. Not everything, but the Finns make good weapons. Compulsion as well. Compulsion, yes.

Speaker 1

Okay, and you're talking about Finnish mortars, Iranian ones. But are they fighting with Ukrainian ones, or these MTD ones?

Speaker 2

Was this back when they were MTDs? No, now basically, in principle, Ukraine is already making these mortars, their use has decreased, and the load on production has decreased. This balance is still maintained by Ukrainian mortars, because they are made there. And we are already making the MK-19. Interesting. Yes, GL-53. Is it licensed somehow? Yes, that's it, it exists, it passed, it is in the troops, we have already fired it once. In principle, you could say something about the weapon if it had fired 1,008 or 10,000 rounds; if it had fired, then you could say something about it. We fired a new one. Well, it fires normally, there are no questions about it, but what will happen to it further is unknown. There are very many Turkish AGL-40 grenade launchers, these are under the MK-19 license, because they have a good price-quality ratio, and the Turks, and them, we have very many of them, these Turkish grenade launchers.

Speaker 2

they are not as reliable as the American one, but, in principle, during a modern war, our weapons don't always die a natural death. Well, unfortunately, that's the case. That is, when statistics were collected, very few grenade launchers made it to 5,000 shots. Unfortunately, yes. Because FPVs find them sooner or later.

Speaker 1

Well, obviously, they are lost during.

Speaker 2

Well, yes, because it's a stationary grenade launcher; if it's in a position, they'll be looking for it. Because it is very powerful, and sometimes it was used in the Air Assault Forces when they approached closely. Because it was much more effective than the 82mm mortar. Much more effective. Due to accuracy. Accuracy, volume of fire, and destructive power. For instance, the syrakovochki is much more powerful than the AS-30. Well, with the 82mm, one round falls, but here 10 of them will fly in. Well, obviously, that's a huge difference.

Speaker 1

And also tell me, if you know any examples, about the interaction between collective weaponry and FPVs. How do the crews work and organize?

Speaker 2

Let me tell you about one moment, that it was one position. There was a strong wind,

Speaker 1

counter from

Speaker 2

the enemy to the wind. And one of mine, as I say, I am responsible for those I have trained. He is at a distance of 4.5 kilometers. With short bursts, he drove a group of six people into some hole. And held them for 26 minutes, with short bursts. With a Browning? With a Browning, from a closed position. He held them in the hole for 26 minutes while the FPV was flying. If those six people had come out and scattered across the grove, it would have taken at least ten FPVs for them. Well, ten would be the optimistic estimate. There's an application for you. This collective weapon has already completed the task. He didn't destroy anyone, he didn't wound anyone, but he simply held them in one place, didn't let them lift their heads. So he drove them into this little hole and held them for 26 minutes, because the wind was about 10 meters per second and for the FPV it was very difficult to fly far. Well yes, yes, yes. And the poor thing flew for almost half an hour or 20 minutes. Something around 20-something minutes, he sent me a voice message. And so, in principle,

Speaker 1

this is the application. I think this story best illustrates our initial thesis that the role of collective infantry weaponry has simply changed in kind. And if we are talking about this specific story, then, of course, there are points. The FPV pilots will get them. Although the lion's share.

Speaker 2

Yes, but this group will not reach this element. That is, he is interested in this. Obviously, yes. This enemy group will not reach this element. He is primarily interested in this, he needs it. Therefore, the use, if there is any, was and will be. A bullet will fly faster than a drone in any case. What is the advantage? Because it will arrive faster where it needs to. If there is an opportunity for the use and installation of collective weaponry somewhere as close to the enemy as possible, it is always used. Because it is just… a drone can sometimes be just an additional bonus plus. Because everyone always… While I was still fighting, I am saying, you should rely only on your own strength. Don't believe that someone will come and help you. Always plan your actions in such a way that no one will help you. It will only be a bonus. So try to rely only on yourself and it will be much better. There could be weather, there could be EW, there could be something else and you will not have support. Therefore, you must always be ready to handle any task yourself.

Speaker 1

About UGVs. Over the last couple of years, the UGV niche has developed quite a bit, but they are used as logisticians. Evacuation, delivery of food, ammunition, and all that sort of thing. And as far as I know, there aren't super many examples of the application of combat platforms specifically. Although there are specialized ones that are developed, for example, like a key, which are developed purely for the tasks of destroying the enemy. But nevertheless, there aren't somehow super many examples. In your opinion, why?

Speaker 2

No, strike drones exist. Assault brigades use strike drones. Does that mean I'm not competent? No, just remember that the 93rd brigade posted a video of how they entered a village using strike drones. Several drones with Brownings, they just tore everything apart there. And only after that did the assault groups start moving in. After such trash, no one wanted to fight after the robot attack. Those people lost the desire to do anything, or whoever survived there. Well, no one showed, from there, from which ones, from there, [they] returned. But strike drones, they are present in assault units, they are used quite a lot. There are turrets, and there is a turret for the MK, it's already all implemented. The only thing is that there is a turret for the Browning, but the work on the on-board computer is being finalized. It's already almost at the final stage. In order to have firing from a closed firing position. Plus the issue of training. But right now we are at a stage of something like this, or we are finishing this quickly because everything is already ready. There is even a place where machine gunners and Enerk-operators are trained; it's a training center. And there, the crews of strike Enerks can also be trained. Because such an Enerk must have a driver and training. Obviously,

Speaker 1

these are two different people who have to super coordinate. I said

Speaker 2

with the commander of this training unit. And basically, there is an idea to create another such course there at the base. Because here there are machine gunners, here there are Energa personnel. Well, they are Energa personnel now, they work exclusively on evacuation, logistics. And here we have Brownings, grenade launchers, everything. And there was support, there is a desire that it will appear next year. Or we will think about how to do this legally. Because it is already necessary to train crews. So that an Energa operator and a Browning H2 gunner arrive. That is, one drives, the other shoots. But this is exclusively, it must work as an assault unit, directly and, for example, there in a closed position. So that a Browning will be standing there in an ambush and hammering, for example, some target from 4 kilometers. Just in an ambush with a drone, there will be many, there is a large list of tasks where this can be used. Meaning, it's not a living person going there with a machine gun, a drone went there. That's already okay. Well, and plus working with the military, to what extent it is critical. Because in order to do something, requests, pros and cons are needed. But as for everyone who was surveyed, no one is against it. But for this to move forward, it is necessary to create, make one, and show it, that for the guy it's like this

Speaker 1

can work. Then Seraphine radio works.

Speaker 2

Then it works. This is Stalin Kolyot, he went, and the operator is at the laptop, he aims it all, calculates, and basically directs the fire. But that's already two people. But that's already two people. Like a mini-tank crew.

Speaker 1

Well yes, we're missing a commander. Well, one can be appointed. Actually, that's all from me. Thank you for coming to us and talking. You told us so many interesting things. I think our viewers will enjoy watching this. And listening. Yes, and I to all of you

Speaker 2

Thank you.