Why is mobilization in Ukraine considered unfair? – Vladyslav Greziev and Serhiy Zhadan on recruiting

Speaker 1

The key problem is that mobilization is unfair.

Speaker 2

Do you feel how much of a potential this really is, how much of it is still present among us? This is just a few thousand people per month. This can

Speaker 1

…will it ever end? It was a classic narrative of the sort where the previous clerk disappeared, and when new clerks are being recruited, that it's already in Pasadgi, yes, yes. By the way, when we were talking about further mobilization potential, where it exists—it's definitely foreigners. Foreign companies perceive Ukraine as a testing ground, and they say that if their products don't have a label stating that they have been war-tested in Ukraine, no one will buy them. Meaning, there is no such thing in NATO armies? There isn't, and in principle, they are very strongly interested in adopting this experience. But there is a great shortage of engineers. Ukrainian polytechnic education was not prepared for us to grow so many times over. It's great that you asked this. Okay, then I will now officially speak on camera for the first time.

Speaker 2

Hello everyone, friends. This is Radiohartya. My name is Serhii Zhadanyi. This is a program called "Scenario of the Parade on Red Square." In this program, we invite skilled, intelligent, professional people, and try to talk with them, sometimes seriously and sometimes not so seriously, about all sorts of things. Those that are happening to us, and those that are most likely awaiting us. In

Speaker 1

Today we have Vladyslav Greziv as our guest,

Speaker 2

founder of the recruitment platform LobbyX. Vlad, hi. Hi, Serhii. Welcome. It's very nice to see you in our studio. I understand that we have 40 minutes ahead of us for a conversation on a topic that actually concerns everyone, but in which few people are well-versed.

Speaker 1

Mobilization, recruitment.

Speaker 2

Well, recruiting. Actually, the words "recruiting," "recruits," "mobilization"—these words are heard constantly, but if we're talking about your structure, your platform, what you do, where, at what stage, in what place might an average citizen of Ukraine cross paths with you?

Speaker 1

It can intersect in many places. We have existed for 10 years and began our journey after the Revolution of Dignity, as a kind of aid and support for the state, for the new institutions being built after the Revolution, and for the civil sector with people. So you were looking for specialists? Yes, we helped for free and still do so for this sector, because it is a key sector that builds reforms, makes changes, and people are very much needed there. The conditions or individuals may not always be the best, especially if compared now with the defense-industrial complex, which has significantly raised the bar. We will talk about that as well. We help with people everywhere. Our philosophy is such that we place people for the progress and victory of Ukraine. We are not a classic business; we are a social enterprise. This goal lies at the core of our activity, rather than just making money. We simply try to earn money to support all these non-profit directions of ours. We have been doing this for ten years. After the full-scale invasion, we came up with a new approach on how to attract people to the defense forces. And we implemented, spread, and scaled it. Since 2023, we have been working very actively with the defense-industrial complex and also providing career counseling for veterans. We are returning them to civilian life.

Speaker 2

In fact, you work with military personnel, former military personnel, and those who are currently working for the army. And with those who want to become military personnel. Whoever wants to, we become civilians. Well yes. With potential military personnel. Now tell me this. You say that you started simply as a structure that helped the state find civilian personnel. Finding a mechanic and finding an artilleryman. Is there some fundamental difference between this or not?

Speaker 1

There are no artillerymen in civilian life, no such professions. In any case, you will be taught and prepared for this. There are probably just some requirements for a person who will handle this better. For example, as part of the service crew, carrying shells, those are heavy roles. Not sitting, right? Yes. And for example, your back must be healthy. And such a person will be more suitable for this role. But overall, today our work, at least, is about working with volunteers, with those who choose themselves to join the defense forces. And people decide for themselves which position they want. A person reads the requirements, what they will be doing, understands whether it is for them, whether they will be effective there, chooses for themselves, goes through an interview, and is mobilized. Yes, for us to independently assign someone, that is not our function, that is the function of others. Tell me/us

Speaker 2

this point, I think that now many people on the other side of the screen are starting to smile skeptically, laugh, what volunteers, what recruiting, there is mobilization, there are TCCs, there are all these things. And in reality, you don't choose anything, in reality, you are a hostage of circumstances. And mobilization is, essentially, about the absence of choice. How does it actually work?

Speaker 1

Since '24, from October, there is a resolution that we worked on and implemented, which allows direct recruiting without the participation of the TCC in the process. That is, you come directly to the military unit, you come for an interview—that can be online, obviously—and immediately become a serviceman of this military unit, and then you go to BZVP for training, like on an assignment. You return from the assignment and… This [is/gives] you

Speaker 2

Are they granting leave from BZVP?

Speaker 1

Yes, and you will continue your service. It's paradise, forget about it. Previously, there were times when you, I don't know, were assigned after basic training and shoved wherever they wanted. In other words, you didn't choose this path. In recording, this is the only opportunity—to choose a specific position and unit, be guaranteed to serve there and be effective, because you know where you will be.

Speaker 2

Voloda, please explain this thing, which you truly don't understand—this is without any irony—how can you guarantee to the recruit that he will actually be carrying shells, and not, for example, flying a drone? You don't control this, you cannot go to the unit commander, say, To

Speaker 1

we have support services, and if something goes wrong, of course, you can report that something went wrong, that I was deceived, I was supposed to serve in one position, but it happened that I am in another position. Then we go to the unit and say, this is the last Chinese warning; if this happens again, we will no longer cooperate with you. And we act, so to speak, as an entity that generally generates a sufficient number of volunteers every month. This is a plus for every unit that cooperates with us. These people are valued because, firstly, they are self-motivated for very specific positions. And, of course, no one wants to stop cooperating with us, so everyone fulfills these obligations of theirs.

Speaker 2

You see, such a delicate question, and have there been cases when you called, made a final

Speaker 1

Chinese? There were, but that was a very long time ago, and it was less related to commanders, and more so when this system before 1924 was not yet perfect. We ensured distribution to a specific military unit there using various exotic methods. Back then the system would malfunction, but they usually fixed it. Now there is no such thing, in principle; everything works like clockwork.

Speaker 2

We are talking about the fact that there are two options. The first option is to wait for a summons to arrive, or you might be stopped somewhere and you will end up in the army however it happens. The second option is that you have a choice, and it works, let's say, through your term. That is,

Speaker 1

If you received a summons, you can still go there on your own. The only situation when you no longer have a choice is when you are forcibly mobilized from the street or wherever; then you will, of course, have a choice if it is one of those priority units that currently need staffing from this specific TCC. That's it. Well, it's not a big choice. Well, yes, but at least it exists. Because,

Speaker 2

if you read the Russian narratives, agree that how our mobilization is presented, how the replenishment of the defense forces is presented, it's just some kind of total

Speaker 1

basicexit. Well, yes, they certainly cause harm, they always messed up, specifically, our work. This was a classic narrative, like, where the previous clerk ended up, when new clerks are recruited, that they are already in prison, yes, yes, like, today you applied for a vacancy, tomorrow without BZVP you are already in prison.

Speaker 2

I understood that the next day you are heading into the copse, and the copse is the final destination. Tell me, please, one thing: if, once again, it can be supported by figures, how many people pass through you?

Speaker 1

Per month, I can say that several thousand people are voluntarily joining the defense forces. Several thousand? I probably cannot name the exact figure. Approximately 40 percent go through us, meaning people who use our system in one form or another; that is 40 percent of the total number of volunteers, but it should be noted that our system, since we were its authors, and we advocated it and implemented it, does not only exist on our website; it is also the Ministry of Defense website, it is the Reserve+ app, all vacancies in Reserve+ are, in fact, our vacancies, and the entire backend system is ours, mobilization in Diia, the drone line, then the recruiting site of the Main Intelligence Directorate, the State Border Guard Service, the Ground Forces, and a number of other structures there that also effectively use our system. And the other 60 percent, do you mean volunteers who contact units directly? Yes, those who call a number, those who see postings. Three,

Speaker 2

three, three, three.

Speaker 1

And in the same way, they are mobilized directly, or they sign a contract.

Speaker 2

So, listen, as far as I understand, you are a private structure, a private company that is integrated into

Speaker 1

the state machine? Yes. So you cooperate with the Ministry of Defense? Yes, we have an official cooperation agreement on a pro bono basis, yes, integrated into this system very closely. And besides this part concerning recruitment, historically it has happened that we are involved, in principle, in personnel policy issues. Specifically, co-authors of the mechanism for transfer through the army plus the simplified one and other various solutions. This, by the way, is the first private structure in the world that recruits for the national army. Well, in principle, in the modern world now… I mean

Speaker 2

in

Speaker 1

Is there no such thing in NATO armies? There isn't, and, in principle, they are very interested in adopting this experience. Our allies regularly turn to us, asking how it was possible to rebuild that old Soviet system, where everything was based solely on military commissariats, into a new approach.

Speaker 2

And if we don't take NATO, but if we take, for example, maybe you know, for example, the Israeli army? How does replenishment happen for them, how does staffing happen for them?

Speaker 1

Well, for them it's more of a matter of their reservist system, when you already immediately understand…

Speaker 2

Constant potential…

Speaker 1

Yes, when everyone knows where they will be, what position they will hold, that is the foundation of their army. When, as I understand it, general mobilization… Well, not in detail, but when it was announced that the army needed to be replenished, how it happened for them—well, probably, there must also be some recruiting centers.

Speaker 2

Chloripi, let's go back a bit to what we were talking about regarding those few thousand monthly volunteers. Please tell me, what has been the trend over the last 2.5 years? For

Speaker 1

last 2

Speaker 2

years, right? Since 2024, since autumn, this system has been operating for exactly 2 years.

Speaker 1

Well, it works by direct call-up. Overall, we have been recruiting since July 2022. Since July 2022? Yes. Since May 2024, the number of volunteers has not decreased. It is stable, these few thousand. I explain this by the fact that as time goes on, people simply realize that sooner or later this choice will arise. Either you are mobilized forcibly without a choice, or you finally venture in advance. And it is some very steady figure every month of people who still venture, who praise this decision. Well, thank God they exist.

Speaker 2

I'm listening, if we're talking about such, you know, a rather uncomfortable topic. You know, this term – mobilization potential, record potential. It sounds so mechanical, but behind this are people's fates. Behind this are people; each has their own biography, their own fate, their own families, their own career, their own vision. Do you feel how much of a potential this really is, how much of it is still present among us? It's several thousand people every month. Can this ever end?

Speaker 1

Well, look, you have to operate with such large numbers—how many military-eligible persons among the population are present inside the country.

Speaker 2

We

Speaker 1

By evaluating this indicator, we understand what proportion of these people have official deferments and are truly working legitimately within the system for the state, for the army, and for victory. It is no secret that there is a certain number of people who buy certificates or create various other circumstances that allow them to avoid being liable for military service. There is definitely potential today; according to estimates, there are no fewer than one and a half million men liable for military service today. Practically, those who officially have the status of draft evaders could be conscripted. In other words, this is clearly a segment of the population that can be worked with. Aside from other various sources, we simply have no choice in this existential war. We need to find these opportunities in some way and engage people, persuade them, change the system, build more trust, and work on increasing the number of volunteers, among other things.

Speaker 2

You

Speaker 1

You say other sources. Now everyone

Speaker 2

They are talking both on this side of the front lines and on that side of the front lines about a possible mobilization in Russia. About the fact that Russians could in one moment increase the number of their military forces by several hundred thousand people.

Speaker 2

by 300? Yes, by 300. This is a large number given the situation at the front. Can Ukraine do something in this case? Are there any options for us to recruit into the army, for example, 100 thousand soldiers?

Speaker 1

Look, in principle, I always look at things optimistically. However, there is, unfortunately, the issue of mobilization, and specifically forced mobilization; it has, unfortunately, not been worked through at all throughout all the years of the full-scale war. This is a super unpopular, toxic topic that clearly doesn't add to anyone's political rating. What

Speaker 2

Do you take this on?

Speaker 1

Where does this come from? This is a super thankless job, around which enemy propaganda simply flourishes. And, unfortunately, we have lost a great deal in the information field on the topic of mobilization. The key problem is that mobilization is unfair. It means that there are all sorts of ways to wriggle out of it somehow, buy a certificate, get a fake reservation somewhere, do something else, leave the TCC by paying money. All of this exists. I will not hide this. The people watching us have acquaintances and friends who will confirm this from their own experience. All of this exists. Yes, that's how it is, unfortunately. And when we create such injustice, we demotivate those who joined the army.

Speaker 2

Beaver-free.

Speaker 1

Because they see this. I communicate with a group of military personnel. They say, I could have done it that way too, so why didn't I do it that way. And conversely, others look at those who are currently serving as volunteers and think that this is also not okay. If we work on unpopular decisions that will balance out fairness, and it is clear that we now need to take into account all the context that has occurred, and if we can build a system where there are clear rules and where it will not be possible to simply violate it like this and breach this fairness, I think the potential to mobilize people will be significantly higher.

Speaker 2

It seems to me that the biggest demand right now is the demand for justice.

Speaker 1

As always.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes, as always. Just in this case, when injustice is directly linked to incredible risk and danger, and you are effectively forever…

Speaker 1

By the fates of people.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes, and accordingly, this is especially people

Speaker 1

triggers, without solutions. This is the most critical problem of the state of Ukraine and the most critical obstacle to us being capable of moving towards victory in this war more confidently. Because this is a systemic problem, a defining problem; people are, a priori, the core, the key capital of any structure, including the army. If we do not resolve the issue of people, of personnel policy, then everything else will only have negative consequences because of this.

Speaker 2

Listen, but the personnel policy, the labor shortage, the personnel resourcing we are talking about, it today… Obviously, it is a very pressing issue in the army, in the defense forces, because, in reality, reinforcements are needed, the war is ongoing, it is not ending. But let's be honest, if we speak objectively, it applies equally to the civilian side, meaning the economic sector. You are actively involved with the defense-industrial complex, you also help them, you also work with them. What is happening in this situation, in this sector? Because it is no less important than the military side,

Speaker 1

because this is

Speaker 2

people who provide military weapons.

Speaker 1

There is a crisis in the labor market. At the beginning of the invasion, 6.3 million people went abroad, and 5 million refugees are in the occupied territories. A deficit of people immediately formed in the labor market. This is minus 11 million. Obviously, the reductions were balanced by occupied territories, minus employers and so on, but globally today, unfortunately, there is a very strong shortage of specialists in the civilian market. The public sector is very understaffed. Even considering that there is an opportunity to work remotely from abroad—which we also practice, attracting people. Directly inside the country, there is also a heap of working specialties, not only in defense, but anywhere. The same locksmith, technician, electrician. This is already very difficult. And people are retraining. That which was previously traditionally male professions. Today, women are mastering these new professions, through entire large programs. For example, they are training female drivers of large trucks, to replace people who are joining the army. The situation is difficult. Because of this, we have a lot of work. Every week, new and new employers come, reaching out regarding the defense sector. There is a huge excitement around the defense industry in Ukraine today. Because today it is the Silicon Valley, so to speak, in this mil-tech environment.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes. Actually, I think everyone is talking about this. Military and civilians, who, on the one hand, realized that this is not from a good life, it is because we are in great danger, we need to survive. On the other hand, is there some kind of chance in this for us?

Speaker 1

Yes. In a sense, foreign companies perceive Ukraine as a testing ground. And probably, if their products don't have a label saying they were battle-tested in the war in Ukraine, nobody will buy them. Every week, at least two new foreign companies approach us with some products, trying to catch up with Ukrainian manufacturers; in most product domains, Ukrainian manufacturers are head and shoulders above foreign ones. Well, it's clear that their motivation is primarily to make money later on some contracts or other. But there are also very cool, unique products that, for example, don't exist in Ukraine, and they are aimed primarily at helping us win. Great excitement, big money, technological progress—these are the fronts of technological progress; the smartest engineers are moving here from abroad, foreigners realize that this progress is only possible in Ukraine. It's very interesting, very cool, we invest and put a lot into this, we organize various events. In Kharkiv, by the way, we also held events for Ukrainian engineers in June. There are very talented engineers in Kharkiv. It was a bit easier here, high salaries, it's interesting, working for victory, they are granted deferments. Work.

Speaker 2

for the future, because tomorrow, if you work well, you will still have work tomorrow.

Speaker 1

But there is a great shortage of engineers. The Ukrainian polytechnic world was not ready for us to grow so many times over; everyone needs this knowledge. Well, everyone is learning, just learning on the fly.

Speaker 2

I'm listening, that's actually what I want to ask about. Recently, a few days ago, I was at Lviv Polytechnic, talked with the students there—wonderful, great students, teachers. It's visible, it catches the eye, that many students are not from Lviv. Many teenagers come from other regions. One way or another, if we talk about our education, the education system, university education, this is probably now the main source, the potential—those people who tomorrow will be able to enter the defense and industrial complex, where they can start working. Is work being done directly with universities to train personnel, or is it happening as before, waiting for graduates to come and offer their services? How does it happen?

Speaker 1

Work is underway. First, the most progressive universities have reoriented and launched departments.

Speaker 2

And do you see which is the most progressive university?

Speaker 1

If

Speaker 2

maybe, if this

Speaker 1

ethical. Of course, Mohylianka, KPI, Kyiv School of Economics, Lviv Polytechnic, Kyiv Aviation Institute. These are, at the very least, the ones I know for sure, even UCU, which have taken some steps toward creating either a new department, or some school, or something of the sort, or there are even associations. You know, FirePoint, it seems, in principle, has almost finished building a joint laboratory now for KPI, KAI, and someone else, I don't remember, in Kyiv. That is, they unite like this, they literally create hubs. They launch programs, they launch them, they focus on what is relevant, well, sorry, it's already the fifth year. It would be shameful if they hadn't reoriented by the fifth year. So, thank God, this is happening, it's just a long-term investment. An engineer is a specialist, after all; he doesn't become one in a year, two, or four. They started investing, that's okay, manufacturers work directly with universities, they fund them, create additional programs, add their own teachers, provide cases, provide equipment, and equip all the laboratories. Of course, they then claim the graduates. Not on these

Speaker 2

personnel. When you say you won't become an engineer in a year, but if necessary, maybe it is still worth implementing some programs to attract students in a more accelerated…

Speaker 1

There are short-term programs where, so to speak, in a few months you master very basic vocational trades, like a radio-electronic equipment assembler. You can actually learn this in as little as two weeks. And then you progress, enter the environment, hang out with those engineers, someone notices your potential, and you start learning through practice. Otherwise, there couldn't be so many self-taught people who have integrated this way; I know of many. One of the speakers at the "Country of Engineers" spoke to us; he is a radio engineer. Before the invasion, he was also engaged in technical work, but it wasn't related to radio waves. He says he just figured it all out himself. But his knowledge is so fundamental that I was surprised a person had mapped all this out on their own. In principle, all of this is possible. And there are tons of resources now with artificial intelligence. Obviously, you can find any information. There are free online courses. If you want to get into the defense industry, there are a million opportunities. And is the Ministry of Education involved in this somehow? They support it, of course, as did the previous minister, Lisovyi. He also focused on promoting professional technical education. Yes, they carried out this reform. There is also a focus on this. To a greater extent, of course, these are vocational trades, but there is a great need for them as well. This

Speaker 2

what is currently in high demand

Speaker 1

is. Because, so to speak, the ratio of worker specialties to engineering ones in classic manufacturing—well, of course, there are significantly more worker ones, because it is about scaling the workforce.

Speaker 2

I also wanted to go back a bit once again. You mentioned Ukrainians who are currently abroad and work remotely. This is potential, this resource—can it be increased somehow, in your opinion?

Speaker 1

It's great that you asked that. Alright, then I will now officially speak on camera for the first time. We are currently preparing a new line of activity regarding the return of Ukrainians from abroad and engaging them even more intensively from abroad to work in Ukraine. Before this, we were partners in several initiatives of diaspora organizations. However, there, let's say, the hypotheses regarding what prevents it and what needs to be done so that people return, well, didn't quite work. Now we want to take leadership and try to implement our own vision. The issue is currently at the research stage, with a lot of different sociology. I think that after winter, already in the spring, we will come out with a public announcement and a proposal. I feel this potential. For the first time in five years, I went on vacation this summer and met with many of my acquaintances and friends who live abroad. In conversations with them, I realized that people now have even more sentiments and thoughts about returning. It's clear that the security issue is the first thing that them

Speaker 2

stops,

Speaker 1

but thank God, we have a large country. There is a rear in the west; the western regions live incomparably more peacefully than Kharkiv or, say, Dnipro, Zaporizhzhia and Kyiv, in that

Speaker 2

including. Kyiv probably especially now.

Speaker 1

Here

Speaker 2

No need to compete now. Therefore,

Speaker 1

Basically, I think we will be able to find some configuration in which we will, at least, begin to realize this potential. As I understand it, after winter, because

Speaker 2

somehow on

Speaker 1

winter to invite people. Well, it's somewhat inappropriate. Look, I believe that people are the basis, in principle, for the functioning of the state in any sphere. Whether it's the defense industry, the army, the public sector, or the economy. Literally, how many people are on the territory of Ukraine, as consumers of products, services, and taxpayers. This all really affects our capability cumulatively. And it's clear that some kind of migration policy can be introduced, inviting people from other countries to work in Ukraine. All of this can be done. However, I am convinced that this country will primarily need purely Ukrainians. Therefore, people in the diaspora, people who left due to the full-scale invasion – they are definitely our target audience with whom we can talk, show prospects, and show that they are needed here. And in parallel, show today's youth who remain in Ukraine that there is a future here, that there are opportunities for them to realize themselves, to be happy and successful. I very much agree,

Speaker 2

what you are saying, because, firstly, when it happens to be abroad now and communicate with Ukrainians, it is really evident that many are ready to return. The first issue is safety, undoubtedly. The second issue is education, because of the children. And children need to study in today's realities. In Kharkiv, this is a pressing issue, so you see for yourself. And the third issue, well yes, is some kind of salary stability. It seems to me that if we really make the defense industry as such a basis, as a cornerstone of our economy, then that is probably an option. Defense industry

Speaker 1

– yes, but if the principles, similarly, that the labor market crisis, there is a queue for any competent specialist. Therefore, every person who returns to Ukraine will have no problems with work, wherever they were, wherever they want. Here

Speaker 2

I agree that, you know, there is such a thing as the policy of those countries where Ukrainians are currently located. When

Speaker 1

you

Speaker 2

Looking at the statements of some Polish politicians, the statements of some German politicians, frankly speaking, I feel sorry for the Ukrainians. I wish they would just return to where they are treated as citizens.

Speaker 1

We see this not only among politicians; there are unfriendly manifestations within Polish society as well. Unfortunately, this is all unfair. In your own environment, among your own fellow citizens, you will always feel among your own. We share a common cultural, historical, and value-based context. It will clearly be more comfortable here. And plus, social security.

Speaker 2

But look, you said—as far as I understand—that I am quite skeptical about the possible migration component. To attract foreigners here. It seems you think this won't work as a temporary option?

Speaker 1

I am not being skeptical. I am simply saying first and foremost that this country will primarily be needed by Ukrainians, meaning anyone else, with very rare exceptions, nominally foreigners who mobilize into foreign legions. That is to say, it will be, I think, a more consumerist attitude toward our country, rather than you investing yourself there, bringing added extra value in order to rebuild Ukraine after our victory.

Speaker 2

Well yes, but I mean purely tactically. For example, some new plants are being built, some new factory, so to speak, even in Zakarpattia.

Speaker 1

This is all okay, it's normal practice. Other countries do this too, if it is somehow moderated so that it's all just in balance, not some chaotic, uncontrolled flow.

Speaker 2

As far as I understand, our enemy is precisely taking active advantage of this. Their migration flows there are simply enormous. On one hand, you constantly hear that people are leaving there in masses now—say, the Uzbeks, because they fear mobilization—on the other hand, someone is leaving.

Speaker 1

The colonial policy of the empire's authoritarian regime, by the hands of enslaved peoples, with their lives.

Speaker 2

You characterized Russia very clearly. It seems to me that perhaps the absence of these things here is not a guarantee, but rather the reason why it doesn't work for us, that, so to speak, 100 thousand Turks or 100 thousand Poles cannot come here and at some point simply sustain our economy.

Speaker 1

Well, right now it seems just as unattractive for them to come to a country that is constantly under shelling. But it is agreed that volunteers are coming. That is so, and it is an honor. And these are not just a few individuals or dozens. I am in awe of these people. By the way, when we spoke about further mobilization potential, where it is, it is definitely foreigners. There have also been various initiatives repeatedly regarding the realization of this potential. Today I also know that in the Ministry of Defense and in the General Staff there are smart people working to build… I mean, to do something,

Speaker 2

for example.

Speaker 1

Of course, there are challenges there, but globally, Ukraine is playing for the good side on the world map. And this attracts millions of people for whom the concepts of values, freedom, dignity, and justice resonate. In other words, all these people are, of course, our target. And this flow is constant; it can be further increased. Therefore, we need to work on this. This

Speaker 2

Very interesting. We touched upon those. Do you think it can be significantly increased? This is somehow massive.

Speaker 1

scale? I think I know key people who were successful in attracting foreigners to the defense sector in Ukraine. And communicating with them, asking for their opinion, I always get the answer that there is still no established systemic, full-fledged mechanism for how this can be fully implemented at the state level. So if they say this, I believe it, I believe it.

Speaker 2

him. And do you believe that such a mechanism could work?

Speaker 1

Well, everything depends on those who hold political power. Now I know that this is a priority, particularly in the Ministry of Defense. And I know that in the general staff, a very bright person who understands how it works has recently been appointed to this role, to this responsibility. Therefore, yes, there was relevant experience beforehand, so I believe that we will have a result.

Speaker 2

Well, this is interesting, actually, a very interesting topic, I think, we can still talk about this on

Speaker 1

second. I will recommend a speaker to you on this topic. I will ask, yes. Because,

Speaker 2

Actually, Khartyzh is also involved in this.

Speaker 1

You

Speaker 2

Do you work with this? As far as I understand, we are one of the most successful in this sense. We really have units that are effective. My point is that having seen this work from the inside, it is clear that there is great potential behind it. It just lacks some, perhaps, systematization and a state approach. And resources. Yes. But it seems to me that even the resources here are proportionate to our capabilities, that Ukraine could afford to increase this.

Speaker 1

A lot of information work needs to be carried out in other countries, which involves communications and various other creative approaches.

Speaker 2

And plus competition. Competition from Russia, because Russia attracts volunteers from those same countries.

Speaker 1

Yes, yes. Let's put it this way, in '22-'23 there was an episode when speed was very important. How does it work? When you manage to be the first to enter, so to speak, into some society, into some country, and convince the local military community to actually join the war on Ukraine's side, then internal national solidarity is formed in that country. Especially when someone begins to die for Ukraine, others then, like, won't go fight with Russia. Therefore, it was important to quickly capture the markets, let's put it that way. Now all the markets are distributed, effectively. There are countries that go to Russia. Listen, with

Speaker 2

On one hand, yes, I agree with you, on the other hand, look, if we speak objectively, Colombians are in Aboharnias.

Speaker 1

Well, there are those who approach this super pragmatically. Yes, and it seems to me, this too.

Speaker 2

can be underestimated.

Speaker 1

Rather, in the process

Speaker 2

Work needs to be done. But if we go back a bit to what you said 20 minutes ago about these applications, about the vacancies you offer, what are the statistics, actually, who do the people who voluntarily agree to go through it today most want to be? These few thousand people who replenish the defense forces every month.

Speaker 1

Almost half want to work with unmanned systems, and that's cool because these are combat positions today.

Speaker 2

Could it be that these are not clerks,

Speaker 1

not

Speaker 2

accountants, not cooks, they want to fly.

Speaker 1

Yes, strangely enough, among those volunteers who come through Lobby X, well, and Reserve, all that. 48% are people who go for unmanned systems. That's very cool. Yes, by the way, then the same infantry is in fifth place, so to speak, in the ranking. Yes, there is significantly less of it there, already 7%. Well yes, yes, I understand. This all correlates strongly, in particular, with the number of vacancies. So to speak, many pilots are needed everywhere, and accordingly, it happens one way or another. People look for a place where they can definitely get into the army, rather than where, so to speak, there is a programmer position. In such cases, we have a million. One programmer position, 400 people are applying for it. And 399 who will be waiting for months. Well yes,

Speaker 2

Clear.

Speaker 1

Alternative, which alternative is closest to a person who understands something about programming? Well, of course, a drone operator.

Speaker 2

It so happened that this war of drones, accordingly, unmanned aerial vehicles, the people who work in the drone system, they are now, indeed, perhaps, the most highly rated, the most recognizable, and the ones spoken about the most.

Speaker 1

Well, and this is well-positioned, meaning everyone understands that this is work, so to speak, that yields results today in striking with unmanned systems. Most effectively. People understand, okay, it's clear that FPV units, for instance, middle-strikes try to calculate and strike these priority targets as well, but at least people understand that this is work where you, so to speak, are not on the front line, do not engage in close-quarters combat, well, although that can happen, but mostly, right? And that this can be, you know, a special rotation, if we are talking about unmanned system forces, about corps such as Artia, AZOV-3. These are conditions of a certain nature that each brigade communicates and guarantees, some things regarding leaves, the possibility of resting; all this is attractive, and of course, people choose them.

Speaker 2

And tell me, Volodyslav Katakurovich, look, as for the operators, those who fly, they are everywhere in the footage, they are shown, everyone sees their work, I think, for civilians who are not connected with the armored forces, one could say, it's a certain complex—that it's so difficult, how can I learn to fly like that and be so effective. How to deal with this? It's fear, the fear that, it's imposter syndrome—that you are unworthy, that you won't be able to, won't learn.

Speaker 1

When we conducted various surveys and research, we didn't directly notice such a problem; plus, today there are plenty of training options, free ones, courses, and simulators. So you

Speaker 2

you can prepare, even not yet

Speaker 1

came. Of course, there are plenty of training courses for civilians. You can simply figure out whether it's for you or not; that is, I absolutely assume that for some people, holding a joystick and developing coordination even after long training is just not their thing. No problem, to energy guides. You don't need balance in the air there. That is why I haven't heard and haven't seen in surveys that there is a blocker in the sense that you might be an impostor and won't learn. In any case, in every FPV crew, there are plenty of other people; you can be a decoder, an analyst, you can work in a team, plenty of other things.

Speaker 2

Another thing that, I think, for many—not that it's a problem, it's just little known and unclear—are such positions. I think very many civilians don't even realize what a complex machine the army is, what positions there are. You encounter this, that someone finds some vacancy from you and simply doesn't believe that such…

Speaker 1

does it exist? Yes, they take a screenshot, publish it somewhere on Twitter, so to speak, and then it spreads, what is this even in the Ukrainian army. I know, there was that… Literary

Speaker 2

editor?

Speaker 1

Yes, and then Barber there, anyway, there are tattoo artists there. Then Kembryg calls and says, stop filming, because I've already gotten heat. In fact, for the psychological support of the personnel, they even decided to bring in a tattoo artist who will tattoo the whole crew, and it will somehow maintain morale, well I don't know, conditionally tattooing a Charter chevron on those who want it. They're just tattooing us. And I [tell] you, you know

Speaker 2

such a thing, that we recently had a veterans' festival in our Kai Charter Hub, and there

Speaker 1

Tattoo artists were working, and they did 26 tattoos in one day. So those are your boys who are serving with you?

Speaker 2

These are veterans,

Speaker 1

this

Speaker 2

and our veterans, and veterans from other units who came to this festival, but what is meant is that they are in one way or another connected to this military community.

Speaker 1

I think so, as of now it is already the fifth year of the war, and people who, in principle, are interested in the topic of the army, those liable for military service, one way or another I am sure that the vast majority have visited at least once to look at vacancies. Therefore, when they saw the scale of vacant positions, they probably began to somehow realize that the army is a large structure, the rear is a very important function, where supply, and logistics, and the organization of all this [occur], so that combat operations take place; without this, it is impossible.

Speaker 1

so that it takes place effectively. Effectively. I think that in reality, this SUF took place. So before, there was some very abstract understanding. Well, let's put it this way, a civilian person—before you joined the defense forces at the beginning of the invasion—I also had a very weak idea of what an army is, and for me, it looked, so to speak, only like combat crews. Today, all reasonable people in Ukraine have clearly improved their knowledge of the army. And therefore they perfectly understand that there are a bunch of services, they've seen these vacancies, they understand this importance. The flow for those positions is large. It's just that compared to combat positions, in proportion, it's not such a large number, which is why the results there are slightly lower. Although demand is, of course, high; very many people want to get into staff positions. I know what I want to ask you.

Speaker 2

If we look to the future, if we are not afraid to talk about the end of the war, the war ends, and what happens? Demobilization happens. Are you ready for this, do you understand how you will work with this huge flow of people who, in fact, will be resocialized?

Speaker 1

Well, generally, this is a task for the state, to be ready to work on such a scale, for the Ministry of Veterans Affairs. You know, the previous team at the ministry was preparing for the fact that this could be a large-scale approach. And we, for our part, likewise, have a separate department for working with veterans, which is ready to expand and process more applications from veterans who contact us. They undergo individual career counseling. We help them decide who they can be in civilian life, so that they can be satisfied in their position and resocialize, seeing the meaning in continuing to live using different approaches. We work with employers regarding veteran-friendly policies, so that people can organize appropriate conditions and so on. There is a great deal of prejudice and fear among civilian employers regarding veterans, simply a lack of readiness, a lack of understanding.

Speaker 2

This is also pounced upon, specifically, in our

Speaker 1

lessons. Of course, we do all this, not only us, many people are working on this. To be honest, if there were more resources, more would be done, because we finance this department ourselves. The need is great. I think that as soon as a glimmer appears on the horizon that the war will be ending, I think there will be more momentum, there will be more resources, and we will be able to be better prepared for mass demobilization. Again, when it happens, it will still be in stages.

Speaker 2

Well, obviously, a million people will not disperse.

Speaker 1

It's not possible right away; there is even a concept of how, like, contract soldiers end their service, how mobilized ones do, which waves and so on. That is, a certain number of people—we see this now from polls and from those who are being demobilized—still do not see their future outside of the defense forces. Some people simply found themselves there, those who realized this. I have a second cousin who, like, in civilian life, unfortunately, didn't have as much success as he did in the army, where he is super highly valued. That's wonderful.

Speaker 2

I understand. I see many people who have truly found themselves. That is, it just happened, they are realizing their potential, they are growing.

Speaker 1

They feel valuable.

Speaker 2

Well, then we will see, observe, how we can help. Friends, with us is Vladyslav Greziev, founder of the recruiting platform Lobby X. This was the program "Scenario of the Parade on Red Square." You can watch and listen to us on radio hartia.com, and my name is Serhiy Radan. Goodbye everyone! Thank you!