“You won’t survive without black humor”: Yarina Chornohuz and Oleksandra Davydenko about life at the front

Speaker 1

And so on, I don't believe that the printed, and I will never believe, that the printed book will die. That for me and for an infantryman, a ground robotic complex is the saved life of an infantryman who would have never left its kill zone. And people have become so sarcastic, and the world has become so sarcastic, because otherwise you can't survive. In one of my essays, I call this

Speaker 2

Schrödinger's psyche. It's when you simultaneously exist in two opposite states.

Speaker 3

Is it obvious that the self-military should start joking about the military?

Speaker 2

The phenomenon of Ukrainian women's competence literature is emerging among us.

Speaker 3

Friends, hello everyone, this is "Radiohartiya". Today is January 29, which means the second day of the literary armorka is underway. We are in Virmilo in the center. And here to us, in our field mobile studio, fantastic, charming, wonderful, wise, talented guests are coming. Now, I can't help myself, I'm inviting two guests at once. Today we have as guests Oleksandra Vyruva-Davydenko, Hero of Ukraine, an infantrywoman of the National Guard of Ukraine, and Yarina Chornohuz. Hello. Hello. Hello. Glad to see you.

Speaker 2

Likewise.

Speaker 3

Listen, I, you know, how much we, despite the fact that we are at the literary armorku, I want to mention another event. You will have a speech, a book presentation, in about an hour and a half, right? Please tell us about this idea. How did it all arise? From where?

Speaker 1

Actually, as funny as it might be, the nails are to blame for everything. Yes. The absence of a nail on the feet. I left the position, I had such a misfortune. And they tell me, well you don't run, you can't wear closed shoes, you can't go far, you can't do anything. And then the commander writes to me, they say, well we need a collection for the NRK, you have books lying there, they, like, should be selling. I call the girls, and they say, but the books aren't selling. And I ask, why? And then I sit and think, really, why? I didn't present it, I didn't show it to anyone, I did nothing for it. And I sit and ask, why? And then I think, well, the nails are to blame for everything, I need to somehow find out what is happening in Kharkiv. I call, I write to Ms. Aryna, because we've known each other for quite a while, and I ask, well you write, so tell me, what is happening, what will happen next, what is going on in literary life in general? Because I read books, but what is happening in that world outside the forest, beyond some barrage? I, well, I don't know, enlighten me. And she, but there is a literary fair of Mr. Zhedin right now.

Speaker 3

And I'm like,

Speaker 1

So, in three hours in the evening, somehow, with the help of thousands of strangers—perhaps, to me, so many people who were calling each other, texting, I think there were chats for more than three hours—they tell me, yes, you'll have a presentation in a bookstore, and so on and so on, you'll be here, there, there, you'll go to the radio, you'll go there, and I'm like, well, I'll go, but I just wanted to show the little book, sell it, and collect some donations. And here it is in four hours, thousands of people, I'm sure a million of these organizers, these wonderful people who stand behind these walls, but they did so much. Yara writes to me, "Look, Mr. Zhedan says that this, this, and this is possible," and I think, My God, I just asked with the hope that something might happen, and here it all ramped up in four hours, and I realize, well, it means it's necessary, but no one is to blame for anything.

Speaker 1

now

Speaker 2

I will briefly tell my version.

Speaker 1

That,

Speaker 2

what I don't know is what was behind my back. Well, I'll start with the fact that I've known Sasha for a long time, we have a lot in common, we've both been in the military for seven years, as far as I understand; I'm in the marine corps, she's in the National Guard. And I'm generally proud that in our country there are women who, like her, went on assaults, destroyed the enemy, fought in the infantry, stayed there for over 40 or more days in the positions. And when I found out that she was putting together a collection from zero at zero to zero, I wrote immediately, said that if you need a moderator, I'm ready to be one right away. But she refused for a very long time. She refused for a very long time, kept brushing me off, she said. Well, and here is the synergy, the literary fair, desired, and so, I agreed.

Speaker 3

Listen, as far as I understand, the energy fundraiser is still ongoing, right?

Speaker 1

The fundraiser for the enerkas is ongoing, as most of the money goes not to the purchase of the enerkas themselves, but to the components. Starting from metal and ending with everything else. Sometimes 150 thousand or more are needed per month. Sometimes even half a million. An enerka either lasts a long time or doesn't survive at all. Let's take

Speaker 3

inexpensive and

Speaker 1

and

Speaker 3

short-lived,

Speaker 1

Unfortunately. Our "Svoboda" battalion, which will soon be in Kharta, in the 23rd SP Rukh, and is being transferred here gradually. And will be working here. They have a fairly developed scheme-system of ground robotic complexes. For two years now, they have trained many people, they understand a lot. And it needs to be supported, because for me, as an infantryman, a ground robotic complex means the saved life of an infantryman who would never have left the kill zone. And for me, as an infantryman, this is very important. Therefore, all my fundraisers, what I try to push for, what I ask for—it is all for GRKs. Because for me, this is the life of an infantryman. Sash,

Speaker 3

lobby us for

Speaker 1

UGVs, we support them… An infantryman's life is the most precious thing to me personally. Therefore, it is the only thing that is most precious to me. By the way, I also trained for unmanned ground vehicles in the 3rd Assault Brigade, but I am not working with them yet. When the time comes, I will be able to work with them as well; right now, I am among the pilots. But the point remains the same. A lot of things were delivered by UGVs, even to us pilots, and still are. Just as they worked in logistics and the evacuation of the wounded, they continue to work. And as for these wonderful little machine-tanks, nothing better has been invented yet, and I doubt anything will be. Take Independence Day, when I saw that video where UGVs are moving, I was like, my god, people, give a little more funds. What is moving is just for one day. We need a lot, a lot, and a lot of them. But primarily, specifically for maintenance. A lot of money, primarily, goes toward the maintenance of UGVs. I

Speaker 3

I just wanted to say that let's put a link under this video. You told me that culture should work for the army, for the military. But, friends, if I may, I wanted to ask about this thing. This is your story for this evening. Yes, actually, it's like a military-Roma radio.

Speaker 1

Something like that, yeah.

Speaker 3

People know each other personally, people communicate in various places. One way or another, there are many people in the arts within the Defense Forces. Some write, some continue to pursue music. And if we focus on literature. Military literature. In '14, it was still such an exotic thing. They were given a separate tent, a separate section at festivals. That here is normal literature, and the so-called.

Speaker 1

look, and there is a duck-beaked one. And

Speaker 3

where there are veterans, let's… let's not impress them. Let's also buy books from them. I feel like everything has changed now. Now, rather, there is no non-military literature. Even if a person isn't serving personally, still, one way or another, this context, it touches everyone today. Now someone is fighting for everyone. Someone is fighting, some are in combat, some are in combat. But one way or another, this already concerns all of us. Do you somehow feel this change? A change, in principle, in the rules of the game; now there is no veterans' literature. Now this literature is the literature of the military.

Speaker 2

I agree with this because, indeed, the war has become an existence, an existential state for us. And every person experiences it in their own way. Both civilians and military personnel have their own experience in this. And, I don't know, before, it seems to me, this was distinguished based on, I don't know, probably, the intensity of some experience. That is, there is a very harsh combatant experience.

Speaker 3

And

Speaker 2

He perhaps even now can stand a bit apart. Not everyone, probably, is ready to read him. By the way, I have a theory that we have now in literature reached a stage—by my sense of time—we have reached the stage of Hashyk.

Speaker 3

The first humorous novel may appear.

Speaker 2

When it becomes, yes, humor—like in "Popyt"—I reflect, or even regarding my poetry, I've thought more than once that there are quite a few heavy truths there about the front, about life. I didn't try to make them heavy, but they are some kind of complex truths. And in '22, it was hard even to formulate them when it all began. And in '23, it was the same. And now many people have already accepted these truths, integrated them; everyone is serving. As we say, war is an existential state for all of us. Everyone wants to escape this. That's just my feeling. I haven't reached that level yet.

Speaker 3

Actually, this isn't in your books. From what I've seen of your poems, Hashyk isn't there either. This is a slightly different text for now.

Speaker 1

There is definitely no Hashyka, I'll say that. But it's temporary. It really is temporary, because I'll think about a prose book specifically. And that's exactly where this synergy and existence will be. Something between what Yaryna said, and something between that which must intersect, step over. Because without humor, actually—that black, that caustic, that army humor, that kind of humor.

Speaker 3

You speak about him with such love.

Speaker 1

Actually, this is what holds us all together. This is the only thing we have. It is something that is in everyone, but it sleeps. And now it has awakened. And people have become so sarcastic. And the world has become so sarcastic. Because you can't survive any other way. It's like a blanket, an armored blanket of this humor, how much it covers, and we called it armor-plating of humor and armor-mesh of humor. It covers, and people are slowly moving toward this. And when we start telling things there, I start telling something there, and I see, the person is like, slowly…

Speaker 3

Yeah. And it's hard to say. And I'm like

Speaker 1

So, something is needed, and I start telling something. Something funny, to make people laugh. And it occurred to me long ago that one can give it in doses. That is, you prick, you pat; that is how it should be with literature now. I won't say that everything in my poetry here is absolutely sad. Everyone thinks that this is poetry only about the war, that my poetry was written only during the war. Actually, no. I have been writing since the lower grades and published only what was preserved, what survived until this time. Because, as they always told me, you know, for us every second person writes, every third sings, every fifth dances. We are such a talented nation. But who will listen to you? Who will promote you? Who needs you? Do our people need this? And you listened and thought, yes, indeed, who needs this? And you write for the drawer. You work in journalism, you write for the drawer. And then some time comes, you reread what you wrote and realize, damn it. You understood this earlier. You saw this earlier. You felt this earlier. That poetry is, after all, a high thing, much higher than prose. And you feel it somehow in advance, you catch these future high things. And then, when you read it, after some time, you understand it. While you are writing it, you don't understand. And perhaps someone will read and understand now. Not what was, but what will be. And what he wants to see, what he felt, understood, but did not want to believe.

Speaker 3

You wanted something

Speaker 2

add? I just wanted to add such an interesting remark. This is something I would point out at many military events, about our books, that we all burst out laughing and talk about these kinds of things. Our experience is with humor, but currently our texts are very often serious and

Speaker 3

still

Speaker 2

they carry all these truths. And it is a sort of, in one of my essays I call it Schrödinger's psyche.

Speaker 3

This

Speaker 2

when you simultaneously exist in two opposite states. That is, we would all like to make some witty jokes with dark humor, but we are talking about some often still serious things Where

Speaker 1

not funny at all

Speaker 2

and somehow it just doesn't work. And it's that kind of moment when you always feel awkward. But still, this needs to be talked about, because the experience of writing by competent people is not that widespread at the moment. It has its own specifics, the experience has its own specifics.

Speaker 3

first of all. And he

Speaker 2

is conveyed in poetry. And so, it will be very interesting for me to talk about this with you today. Because I have one experience as a military person, and here there is another experience as a military person. And it is very interesting to compare.

Speaker 3

It is very interesting that you mentioned this. This is, in fact, a topic that is hanging in the air. I remember somewhere around '17-'18, still during the ATO. We were talking with the poet Oleh Kurtashe. There was some conversation. He says, it's clear that everyone is waiting for the appearance of a Ukrainian Remarque. But, he says, we will somehow overcome this psychological breaking point when a Ukrainian Shvejk, a Ukrainian Gashik, effectively, appears. This was said 10 years ago. At the time, it seemed to me like something a bit not entirely appropriate. But I think that there is precisely a great logic to it all. And it is also very important that you, the military, are saying this. It is obvious that it must be the military themselves who start joking about the military. If outsiders do it, it seems to me that nothing will come of it.

Speaker 2

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

Just as it is said that in negotiations about Ukraine, nothing happens without Ukraine, so too in serious global conversations about the military, they probably cannot do without the military. And that same black humor you are talking about—all social networks are filled with it. When military personnel communicate among themselves, all of it is based on this. Obviously, it should be expected that this will soon appear in our films, in our books, in our songs. Probably so?

Speaker 1

Once upon a time, there were some smiles, some things, things were published about the village. For some reason, everyone lived by the village. And everything funny was only about the village, about the city, or some tragicomedies, they wrote those too, and so on. And for some reason, everyone mocked that village. And when I read, I couldn't understand, why specifically the village? What was there to take? What was so funny? And all these things. Now I am in the army, and I understand that, well, yes, there was some point to it. Simply, people, given how much they went through, and in order to survive there, they laughed. And like Lesya Kryshev—not crying, not laughing, and so on, all these things, they run, if sewn with a red thread, they run everywhere in literature. Simply a person who reads a lot, they can catch and understand this. A person who tears out some pieces, they won't be able to put them together. And when I put together this collection of mine from some year like '90, I have a poem up to today, and when I put it all together, I have a feeling that through those dots, tiny specks in this little book, I put myself together, and honestly, it somehow felt like a relief, as if I [recovered] all this lost, thrown away, abandoned, placed somewhere on some fund. I saved it somehow, I put it away, I put it together, and in the same way, I put literature together in my head, when I once didn't finish reading something, didn't fully understand something, didn't quite grasp something, and so on. And it's the same with the book, I don't know, when they said that cinema would kill the theater, and then that audiobooks would kill printed books. This time beats

Speaker 3

TikTok, I think,

Speaker 1

yes

Speaker 3

will be.

Speaker 1

And everything else, I found it funny, because poetry is one thing, prose is another, theater is a third thing entirely, who loves art, who is interested in it, and so on. I don't believe that the printed, I never believe that the printed book will die. Some people listen to audiobooks – please, I didn't write something there on paper, it was such a highly intuitive, beautiful, incredible experience, that's how it is. Even

Speaker 3

I through

Speaker 1

After some time she decided to do this.

Speaker 3

Even I

Speaker 1

After some time, I agreed to this. I wrote, but then again, I didn't write; for me, honestly, it was and still is psychotherapy. It is what saves me, it is what I put down on paper, what I write; for me, it was always a refuge. I didn't think that my psychotherapy could be liked by someone, or be needed by someone, or that someone felt something as deeply or thought as I did, or held the same opinion as I do. It was my small world; I didn't want to throw it out in public. And now, when time has passed and I have gained experience, I realized that I needed to somehow move forward and also help the army, and all of this came together in this little collection. And the main thing I realized is the synergy of people throughout Ukraine, who are connected by these invisible threads, even when they haven't seen each other for years, don't communicate, and so on. Someone called here, everything started spinning, people responded so much, that's how it happens, that's how it is. And they write to you, and you think, my god, you did all this in three hours? I say, they did it all. My god, what was happening there—well, I think, fine, it's all behind me, I won't think about it. But I was surprised that everything was so fast, somehow everyone responds so much. That's how it's done. That people have become more human, more responsive, they are more prompt, more understanding. And when you are sitting there and something hits you on the head, and someone civilian also gets hit on the head, you—not for yourself, but more for the civilians, and the civilians feel the pain for you. There is such an avatar.

Speaker 3

Zhstatella.

Speaker 1

Podatka so, Waldensby vues. Here with the poetry, that's when I felt what people feel, they read, they need something. And I felt it from them when they started buying the first book on the website, started writing me videos there, I realized, damn it, this is psychotherapy not only for me,

Speaker 2

She works.

Speaker 3

But if I may, you are talking about your book. Yarina, as far as I know, you are also supposed to have a book coming out now. And this is your first book of prose, right? You have two books of poetry, and you are known as akpovedku… Three, sorry, sorry. You are known, primarily, as akpovedku. Actually, this is a new experience. Obviously, it's not just a new story, it's some kind of new narrative, a new intonation. And you are also trying to explain something in a new way. Actually, what were you lacking in poetry? Why did prose appear?

Speaker 2

Firstly, prose will appear in my case because I know that many people find it more convenient to read it specifically in the form of prose. I have heard literal pleas from many people.

Speaker 3

What, are the poems too composed?

Speaker 2

Sometimes my poems are complex, sometimes simpler, but I heard many requests from readers that they wanted to hear about this experience specifically in prose. For me, this was quite a challenge, because for the entire 25th year I worked as a crew commander of an attack UAV and a UAV pilot, and I literally forced myself between deployments to write about some of the most acute moments of my combat experience and some important…

Speaker 3

So you were recording and keeping something like a diary, right?

Speaker 2

I cannot say that it is strictly a diary. Most likely, it was something like on the border between a memoir and an essay.

Speaker 3

From

Speaker 2

I would even call it that—and a testimony. Meaning, these are not texts of pure genres, but on the boundary of several genres, I would say. The hardest part was pulling this out of myself, because it is an experience that I want to forget. At the same time, there are many reflections on the war, some generalizations, and generally about what it means to be a soldier, what kind of soldier I am in this war, how he feels existentially. It was important for me to share this. Yes, the book will come out, I think, at the beginning of next year, due to the difficult situation with our books and printing.

Speaker 3

So, this is a separate story that has now emerged for us. To publish a book, it suddenly became problematic. Yes,

Speaker 2

And at the same time, returning to the conversation with Sasha and your question regarding my prose, because I would like to provide a broader context, because indeed, as we said at the beginning, now all literature is, in essence, one way or another, about the war. It is true, this is such a change for us at the same time. It must be said that we have another absolutely new phenomenon in our literature, and in our literature, which is absolutely new to the world. And I feel this very clearly when I go abroad. The phenomenon of Ukrainian women's combatant literature is emerging. Yes. That is, this phenomenon of women's combatant literature is emerging, which is new to the world because in no country of the democratic world has there been a generation of women with a high level of education who could write. Their own texts about their own experience – this is one of the reasons why I am very glad that Sasha will have a presentation of this collection and, perhaps, there will be a presentation of the prose later, because our generation – girls, participants in combat actions – we are creating a new literature, because men have always written about war.

Speaker 3

Usually, predominantly, as a rule.

Speaker 2

Yes. And the whole narrative about the war, it was created by this very

Speaker 3

man. Men, men

Speaker 2

for

Speaker 3

men?

Speaker 2

Well, not only for men, for everyone, but it's natural. And this, how shall I put it, was created by men; I talk about this in my prose book as well, and there are many different images of men at war. There are heroes, there are the weak, there are traitors, there are those who are both strong and weak at the same time. And all of them are acceptable, and all are complex. And literature has not created a single image of such a woman. That's it. And for me, it is almost a matter of a mission to support girls who are creating this, and to write ourselves, so that our voice is heard.

Speaker 3

That is, actually, it is a very interesting topic and a very new topic, because it is somehow spoken about less. Usually, when we talk about combatant literature, we speak in general, both men and women, and I understand that. But the fact is that this war, well, first of all, this war, I think, in principle, has shown women in a completely different way. That the Ukrainian military—I am speaking without idealization, I understand there are a lot of problems, that we are still a specific society with deep-seated traumas, particularly gender-related ones. But still, how many of our women perform those functions and hold those positions that were unimaginable before. And, of course, all this means that things are happening differently in art and in literature, in particular. And you mentioned it, and I immediately start listing, remembering our women who served, have served, some were in captivity, for example, like Valera Nava or Yulia Tayra, who wrote about it. Yes, and they wrote; they had enough strength, the opportunity to find the energy just to write this. This is absolutely some kind of new word, indeed. At the same time, this can be discussed in a social context, about how our society is somehow transforming, yes. And the woman is becoming visible, and she cannot be unheard, yes. On the other hand, this is also something new for literature.

Speaker 1

On the other hand, there is such a phenomenon that previously there was a low quality, a lowliness of the soldiering, the soldier, the army, all of that; it declined greatly over 20-30 years. We went in the wrong direction; everything, as always, went the wrong way, not right. And so here, ordinary soldiers, ordinary infantrymen, ordinary artillerymen, and so on and so forth, are going there. Women who have ordinary social life experience, who have or do not have children—for everyone it is different—who had or did not have families, who are not professional soldiers, who have an education, and not just one, but often some even have three or five, and are even continuing to study now. This is very important; they are developing, they are observing. And how do I express this specific women's combodat literature? It is promising, it is forward-looking, it is the kind that looks into the future. Women in general, they are so positive, they want to give birth to everything, develop everything. To do—well, this is female nature; we want it to live, to develop, to move forward. And it doesn't matter if it's a collection of books, or your child, or if you took a youth and try to make sure he lives, flourishes, that everything for him is wonderful. This feminine—the feminine principle, not just woman as a woman, but specifically the feminine beginning. And it was lacking. And when the army felt it, the army understood it, and the woman herself understood herself, her role there, how differently she sees things, how her practicality is completely different, how organization can be completely different, how the system can work differently, then at first, of course, there was something like, "oh, my God, why, she worked normally before this, well, let it be, you're making revolutions here," and so on and so forth. And then they realized, "no, wait, it actually works," you just need to look, come to terms with the fact that it works, acknowledge this fact and simply not interfere. When I said that you need to be supported, you women said, "just don't get in the way." And that's it, don't hinder the work, don't put spokes in the wheels, don't say that it's unrealistic, don't say that you won't be able to handle it. I don't need you to come, hug me, and say, "My God, you are such a poor little girl." Yes, I you

Speaker 3

I will regret.

Speaker 1

I will regret it, I am so sorry. No, you just come and say, damn, well done, great, I want that too, and let me learn, and let's [do it] together, and let's be. And when I encountered this in my unit and realized that I am also an example, I too can change something, I too can do something, and many women joined the army this way, they realized that they cannot do something. Yes, it is hard for us. Yes, we are breaking this system with difficulty. Yes, we are breaking through these doors with our heads, not only with our heads, but with our feet, hands, and everything possible. But it works, it develops, and often she is a medic, she volunteers, she collects money, she marched there, and all that, and it's just unbelievable. This is a woman who is just such a bumblebee, just a hyperactive bumblebee, and she can do everything.

Speaker 2

bee,

Speaker 1

bumblebee, I wouldn't even call it bee-stuff, it's exactly this bumblebee, buzzing, so loud, that all of this is just like this, everything is like that, god, god, what a nightmare, and then, and it works.

Speaker 3

Irina, if we talk about this more from a purely artistic, purely literary point of view, do you notice any differences in female writing? Or is it, in reality, no longer meaningful to talk about differences between male writing and female writing?

Speaker 2

So, I will immediately address those who, so, disagree with what I have said up to this point. First, many may rightly point out that if there is women's combatant literature, then why does no one call it men's combatant literature. Because, in general, combatant literature, or it was perceived a priori

Speaker 3

like a man's.

Speaker 2

I believe that this is a certain stage. That we are now at a certain stage where, especially for women in Ukraine, but this is also a process worldwide, we are entering professions that were always considered male, and we are speaking about it with a certain voice. And this can be temporarily called such a phenomenon as women's combatant literature. When in the future it all becomes more or less equal, I think that this "women's" aspect will disappear. It will be, as you say, simply combatant literature. Well yes, it will no longer be necessary to separate it. The same goes for, it seems to me, the voice. What you are asking about in poetry. That is, it is very difficult to name this male voice, this female voice, because there are the voices of different people, it seems to me.

Speaker 1

Various

Speaker 2

experience.

Speaker 1

Different

Speaker 2

entities inside,

Speaker 1

yes.

Speaker 2

Although this is actually a basis for research. I can now intuitively mention some things that seem to me to be characteristic specifically of women, combatants, when they write about the war. We, probably, perhaps, in some ways turn more to the experience of the body, are more inclined to articulate certain small nuances of sensations.

Speaker 1

More

Speaker 2

quite cute, more sensual,

Speaker 1

in some moments. There are men who write about this very openly. And there, men write the same way.

Speaker 2

I just feel, I might be wrong, but that also in the poetry of women participating in these hostilities about the war, perhaps we are inclined to look at some things with more open eyes, more sharply. Than because men… At that which they don't pay attention to. Well, they look at it all from a slightly different aspect. But this is such a very gross generalization. Because if you take the poetry of any poet… you immediately find

Speaker 3

challenging stereotypes. I have a feeling that women's poetry in Ukraine has generally changed over the recent time of war. Many emphases have shifted. And the very concept of femininity, which we have stereotypically—that a woman is this way, and a man is that way—all of this no longer corresponds to reality now. Everything has changed now; it is changing right before our eyes. And this applies both to combatant women's poetry and simply to women's poetry. But, it seems to me, this is a topic for a separate conversation. I, instead, want to thank you and wish you a good presentation. I call upon all our viewers to pay attention to the link for the fundraiser for the NRC. Let's support it; it is very important. It saves the lives of our fighters. And what I want to say is that today we had guests Sasha Vyrva-Davydenko and Yaryna Chornogo. With our wonderful poets, who are presenting poems in Kharkiv today. Thank you! Thank you!