Calculating the COST of a killed occupier: how an effective unit works. Oleg Kadanov and Serhiy Zhadan

Speaker 1

We aren't going to talk about those people who are now saying that they are unclean, bad, dishonorable. Or will we? Well, we could, we could. Just at some point I realized, well, I can't be separate, when my comrades, my comrades, yes, but they are warriors there, and I am a volunteer, they say there aren't enough people. I fall asleep and think, there aren't enough people, damn it. Formally, I could have remained absolutely calm in my role as a volunteer. But, well, I probably would have eaten myself alive. What is needed in order to destroy the occupiers? How much does it cost to destroy one occupier? The unit cost of a dead one

Speaker 2

concept?

Speaker 1

It added up, yes. Well, not bad, but it could be cheaper. There are some very simple, meaningful sentences that hit me, and that's it, and I, and all this thick skin as if peels away, and that's it, I stand and cry. You know, some kind of hope arose, like, if guys like that are fighting, everything will be okay.

Speaker 2

Hello everyone, friends, this is "Radiokhartya", the program "Scenario of the Parade on Red Square", our long-running program where we invite interesting, intelligent, wise people to talk about all sorts of topics. Now today we have exactly an interesting, wise

Speaker 1

Lollipop Oleh Kandanov. Hello, friend. Greetings.

Speaker 2

I traditionally wanted to start, I mean, as a writer, actor, musician, but I am very pleased, actually, to be identified as a junior lieutenant of a separate special purpose detachment.

Speaker 1

"Omega".

Speaker 2

This sounds very strange. I have never spoken to you like this after such an appointment. You could start a bit with a conversation about "Omega", just tell me whatever you can tell, even about "Omega".

Speaker 1

Well, overall, the first impression of "Omega" was February 28, 1926, when Alla Bovt is now a major. Alla Bovt is already a major. Major.

Speaker 2

This also sounds very strange,

Speaker 1

but that's how it is. She was, I think, a captain then. She asked to retrieve Yura's body, a fallen comrade of theirs, from Okruzhna, from their destroyed air defense division. And we were volunteers, we didn't know, actually, who to turn to. And we turned, right there, if on Okruzhna, we turned… 22

Speaker 2

And probably

Speaker 1

year. And I said the 26th. Ah, the 26th. Everything had just begun. And we just happened to be acquainted with Anton Spitsen, at that time, with the commander whom I eventually joined, "Omega." He was then in 30-17; it wasn't "Spartan" yet, it was 30-17. They, along with the 92nd and TDF fighters, were stationed there, on Okruzhna. And I say, there is a request, a task from the air defense guys, to try to retrieve a body, how to do it. And right then, the Omega guys came, and Oleksandr Orlov came, call sign Orel, who died literally a week after that. He listened to our request, and I said, we'll do everything. Bigmenych and I took a Mavic, flew it, looked, told them, showed them what we recorded, showed them what the situation was there. And they came in from the Saltivka side, from the garages, and retrieved not only the body, but also laptops and a lot of weapons. And, essentially, they carried out a very cool operation. And, basically, that was Omega. For the first time, I saw what special forces were—Orlov, who simply perfected the physique that he had built himself, essentially. And a very intelligent person, who speaks on very deep topics. While we were driving to Saltivka, he asked us what we did; he was in the context of art and mentioned some names. Well, regarding the context of art, I will also say a bit more about Omega later. In short, I was, well, incredibly, terribly impressed by the level of Omega's training. And somehow, you know, a kind of hope arose, like, if guys like that are fighting, everything will be okay. A week later, I found out that Orel died there, on Okruzhna. It was very sad; he is now a Hero of Ukraine, posthumously, an incredible figure, very cool. And, essentially, I understand that he inspired Anton Spitsen to also move to Omega. And then, a few years later, I joined Omega.

Speaker 2

And did you choose Omega specifically because you knew Anton, or because you had seen Omega and realized that it was a unit that you would be

Speaker 1

why? Actually, at the beginning of '23, when I was terribly burnt out from volunteering, because of the constant, constant, constant traveling, exactly to the place, to places where, well, like, how should I put it, can I swear, or not? We'll cut it out. Where it was a complete shitshow. Well, you know. And, actually, that's where we met with the Charter in Bakhmut. Yes. At the beginning of '23, Seva was kicking me out of there. He says, what are you doing here, in Bakhmut, it's already over here, you can't be here, get out. Bla-bla-bla, back then still

Speaker 2

little battalion

Speaker 1

and were already being figured out. Yes, we weren't crowded in one basement with the 4th battalion of 3017, with whom we also communicated. Well, in short, when I was terribly burnt out, I took three days of leave, and I went to the brothers from Pitseni in Bakhmut to see how they work, to learn. That is, we were stationed there at the industrial zone. Back then, it was perhaps 700 meters of small arms fire. That is, fire contacts were occurring, and we flew at 700 meters. Now it's hard to imagine, of course, with this kill zone. Yes. Back then it was absolutely possible, and at some moments, even bullets would reach. I mean, I spent a few days with the guys, saw how they work, and realized that it's it. That is, I needed to mobilize, meaning sign a contract, in my case, and go fight. But now I'll just finish some volunteer matters there. And this dragged on for another year because it was very hard to somehow stop at something. New requests kept piling up, work was constantly being done, and I somehow didn't feel the moral right to stop until I spoke with Petro Svyatetskyi; he is currently the master sergeant of the 38th Marine Brigade. During the ATO he went to fight, so he volunteered, and from such a volunteer role, he went to Bryvalets. He says, if you don't stop it, it will never stop. I mean, this story, it's constant. You have to cut it off and just [move] to another year. You just need to not

Speaker 2

to break,

Speaker 1

Yes, and go fight.

Speaker 2

Look, here is what I think, you say, you mentioned Bakhmutova, at that time your colleague was there, a colleague of both of us.

Speaker 1

and a friend.

Speaker 2

Mishko Ozerov. Ozerov, actually, also volunteered. The further along, the more; the further along, the more zealously. At some point, he just got sucked into it. So, in your own way, you have a similar story.

Speaker 1

This is a story of people who just get sucked in. And it seems to me that this is such a typical story, because in any case, you are always asking yourself how effective you are, how much you are doing to the maximum. But then, Oleg,

Speaker 2

You, as a volunteer, did a lot.

Speaker 1

I mean, this is, as is obvious, some kind of thing, and it's not what I… You helped, by the way, thank you for that. Well,

Speaker 2

I mean that you were in your place and you were doing great work, but at some point you still felt that it wasn't enough, that you needed to move to the next level.

Speaker 1

Well, I saw that there were fewer and fewer people. I mean, in '22, such questions didn't seem to arise, but later in '23 and '24, it became completely clear that that's it, there aren't enough people. And, well, like, I… I'm saying that I understood, and many of the military tried to discourage me from this. They said that there aren't that many volunteers who cover all the issues horizontally in such a targeted way. I mean, with funds, it's a pretty long story.

Speaker 2

bureaucratic,

Speaker 1

and everything happened quite quickly here.

Speaker 2

Need a language tutor, here is one for you for tomorrow.

Speaker 1

A car is needed in

Speaker 2

mid-sized cars.

Speaker 1

They tried to do it that way and it usually worked, but I realized that, basically, if I want to remain honest with myself, my path leads there.

Speaker 2

I was thinking that, look, we have a certain societal capacity. People who joined as volunteers, people who joined the army through volunteering. And at some point, there was less of all this. In other words, why did it stop drawing people in? I mean, we aren't going to talk about those people who are now called dishonest, bad, or unscrupulous. Or will we? Well, we could, why not.

Speaker 1

Perhaps some lack courage, because after all, some of my acquaintances speak honestly about this. I am ready to get as involved as possible in the processes, but I am not ready to go ahead. I am not ready. I am afraid. Someone calls out. It's like this Pasopolsky formula – freeze, or fight, or flee. How people react in acute situations varies. That is, depending on the psychotype, on upbringing. I don't know what else it all depends on. Many admit, sincerely, that they are not ready to fight. He is not a warrior. But he does not distance himself from this story that is happening to us, as many others do. Instead, he is as involved as possible and believes that he is in his place. I also think so. I mean, there are people who, well, you see, are perfectly in their place. In principle, I also felt that my volunteer story, it was, well, like, I was fulfilled in it. People trust me, I report, I continue to get everything that is needed. I go to hot spots, I deliver it myself personally. I immediately make these photo reports. So this whole story is happening. Everything is efficient. But just at some point I realized, well, I cannot be apart, when my comrades, my comrades, yes, but they are warriors there, and I am a volunteer, they say, there aren't enough people. I fall asleep and think, there aren't enough people, damn it. So I'll say there that I bypassed the VLC, yes, to get in, to be fit. Because for special forces there is a high level. Yes, I understand. Yes, I played a trick, I passed, but, well, like, formally I could have remained absolutely calmly in my role as a volunteer. But, well, probably, I would have eaten myself alive. My conscience would have crushed me. Very personal private things, right? Yes, I think everyone has their own story there. I mean, it's unlikely we'll have to derive some kind of typical formula, or that we will manage to. But, some kind of, well, need, well, I don't know. Probably unlikely, well, I mean, we will not find an answer that will be universal.

Speaker 2

Some one mechanism about Sanysna.

Speaker 1

It seems,

Speaker 2

That's right. I know what I want to ask. Actually, speaking of Anton, speaking of your friends with whom you began to serve, to fight, these are people who came from civilian life. They are not military by education. They were not in the army; they came from business, they came from public life. Anton, as far as I know, he has, in general, some amazing story of charity. He helped, as far as I rem

Speaker 1

…know, for the children. Children's constructions. Yes, these are some

Speaker 2

so strange, terribly

Speaker 1

released. That is, why didn't he publicize this? And I found out about it, actually, after his death.

Speaker 2

What I'm getting at is that, you know, now, if you look at our military, there is already a large number of people who came from civilian life. And they suddenly turned out to be very effective soldiers, without any background, without experience, without any military practice. They joined, and many of them in sergeant positions, in officer positions. They are building careers for themselves now. I don't know whether they will stay in the military or not. That is also, by the way, interesting to discuss. But one way or another, this experience of civic activism, some kind of civic stance, which they bring to the army. Do you encounter this? Do you see it? Constantly, constantly.

Speaker 1

And, in fact, this story is precisely typical for our army after 1922. And, once again, we were just mentioning Oleh Lyashko before the filming. Colonel Lyashko. I didn't

Speaker 2

I know, he, by the way,

Speaker 1

or a colonel.

Speaker 2

When

Speaker 1

Regiment commander? Yes. Let's put it this way, to be correct. Okay. That is, he turned out to be an incredibly effective commander. And he has incredible results. And so the growth of the battalion, which was in the 63rd brigade, if I'm not mistaken, then a separate battalion, and now a regiment. Further, I think there are every opportunity for it to become a brigade, because scaling this experience is important. And everything works out for them. I mean, they use some kind of civilian formulas, like, here is our task, here is our opportunity to solve it this way, that way, and so on. Resources are brought in; he has the ability to attract some external financial resource. All this is implemented, proves effective, and continues. That is, they have found some formulas through practical experience that work, and they are scaling them, and that's normal. I mean, Anton approached it the same way, it was the same in Kartuzy. What is needed to destroy the occupiers? How much does it cost to destroy one occupier? The cost per casualty.

Speaker 2

to a katsap?

Speaker 1

It was calculated, yes. Well, not bad, but it could be cheaper. Well, like, too much for them. And, I mean, with such an approach to making the destruction of the occupier cheaper, attracting external resources, all of this provides efficiency. And the more effective a unit is, the easier it is for it to attract. Meaning, of course, Sternenko also works according to this formula. Show your destructions, verify, and that's it. We will help you. On

Speaker 2

Kharti too

Speaker 1

that's how it works,

Speaker 2

This is actually from the beginning. It's normal, absolutely normal. This is the price of a defeated enemy.

Speaker 1

Because, once again, if we are talking about the outdated bureaucratic formulas of our army, it all works absolutely wildly there. That is, I recently spoke with a major, a long-time friend of mine from civilian life—quite strange, a major, I won't mention names, from the air force. And they work with anti-aircraft missile systems. And they have an order to relocate, and they must relocate at night. But at night, it's simply an absolute guarantee that his combat vehicle will be destroyed. This

Speaker 2

Generally, it's like this; I think you've seen it within the army. Many of our things are prescribed, if not during the Soviet era, then in the early post-Soviet era. It's so strange. It continues to function as a directive, as a rule, as a law, as a regulation. And you have to follow it. This applies to moral and psychological work with soldiers, and other things, and not necessarily combat work. But all these directives, which were written back in the 90s by deputies, communists, it's very strange in this war.

Speaker 1

Well, but, by the way, if we talk about OMEGA, I am terribly pleased that the approach is very flexible, plastic. And recently, in fact, Maksym Serhiyovych, the commander of our unit, says, guys, everyone is an adult, everyone there is an absolutely experienced pilot, generally, we have experienced crews. We have a zone of responsibility, we have the means. How will you use them? It's your, well, like, decide for yourselves. I won't be cutting out tasks for you, like in previous years. And that is so cool. This, firstly, speaks to the level of trust in us and absolute freedom. We choose the place from which we will work ourselves. Then, in a few weeks, we show the results of the work. There are no questions. There is efficiency and that's it. There is trust. Oh, by the way, how he met me—I'll talk now about how he met me—when Anton Spitsen led me to Maksym Serhiyovych and says, here, this man wishes to join us. And somehow we started talking, talking. I mentioned the musical activity "Mannerheim Line", he says, so you're with Zhadon. And this knowledge of literature, of music. A new type of Ukrainian officer. That is, we immediately started speaking the same language, because I expected to see some kind of soldier who is… rigid. Yes, yes, yes. That is, it was very pleasant.

Speaker 2

I know what I think, this is actually what you are saying, what it testifies to. That essentially these some kind of new, a new form, a new structure of the Ukrainian army, which is being created right now, right before our eyes. It cannot operate according to the old regulations, and it requires new regulations. And this is a great opportunity for the army. If we didn't have drone systems, then they couldn't have been defined under the Soviet system. Under some charter of the UkrSSR. Obviously, they must be defined by some new statute. They are foundational

Speaker 1

anti-Soviet, or post-Soviet, or non-Soviet.

Speaker 2

And, once again, this is, on the one hand, a great danger. On the other hand, it is a great opportunity.

Speaker 1

There is a danger here, because technical tools are changing so rapidly now that it is dangerous to codify operational principles in some statute. Because in 3-4 months, it will already be irrelevant again. In other words, the rules change too quickly. It is a constant race. How can we approach this with some kind of flexible formula? That would be great, but is there a great risk in codifying the statute? Well, what

Speaker 2

Today we fly this way, and in a year it will already be flying absolutely.

Speaker 1

I have been fighting for two years. Even a year ago, the rights were absolutely different. You know, at the beginning,

Speaker 2

When we were doing reconnaissance with a Mavic, I remember those first Mavics that were bought, it was like some kind of treasure. You have a Mavic in your hands, you give it.

Speaker 1

I actually gave it to our IT guy. This is a Mavic Pro with goggles. Anton is on the ring road, where the tram loop to Uzhviy is, standing with the goggles on, seeing nothing. I'm standing with the stand next to him. Like, it's not clear, it's the ring road here. Yes, behind

Speaker 2

landing.

Speaker 1

I've never shot in a skirmish, but I know how to chamber a round. That was a separate scene, of course.

Speaker 2

Remembering those first months of the war, the spring of 1922, I remember when Kharkiv stood empty. On the streets, you could see either military personnel or volunteers. I remember this moment when most of the people you met on the street, you knew. This was the case until around May.

Speaker 1

And now you were looking at Kharkiv, it was just recently

Speaker 2

Celebrations, Flag Day, City Day, Independence Day, a crowded Sumska Street. And between all of this, only 4.5 years. And it is truly like such a dense, very intense flow of time. It's as if you've lived several lives in this time. When I talk to people, people remember a ton of details, a ton of stories from all this time.

Speaker 1

It's all very packed. Time was so compressed, and the density of events was incredibly high. I mean, recalling now, certain triggers sort of unarchive these memories. But overall, it is very difficult to build some kind of chronology. Because absolutely every day something was happening. And these are those kinds of events. I

Speaker 2

I know how it is. In the sense that when I talk to people I was with back then—in our military-volunteer circle—from time to time you can hear this word, "nostalgia." Nostalgia for that Kharkiv. Kharkiv, which was empty on one hand, but on the other hand, it was very clearly visible. You saw who was where, who was on which side. I personally don't really subscribe to this concept of "nostalgia." Because there was nothing good about that Kharkiv.

Speaker 1

There was both good and bad. This

Speaker 2

It was scary, actually. You even recently reread your interview where you mentioned the Saltivka morgue, when you saw those people. You also remember that morgue on Yarslavska, when people were just lying in the streets. Yes, it's scary, and you can't really feel nostalgic for that. I understand that people don't feel nostalgic for that. Rather for some feeling of kinship. But do you remember these in the first months or not, in terms of scale? Of course,

Speaker 1

I remember. And, you know, now this huge accumulated fatigue, meaning, this absolute incomprehensibility of the duration of this story, the uncertainty of the timeframes, it leads to some kind of nervous state, intolerance. And many internal conflicts are arising now, with brothers-in-arms with whom you've been for many years. And, I mean, this is all, such clear signs that fatigue has accumulated. And the feeling—well, it's a cliché phrase—but this feeling of a brotherly shoulder, it was very palpable in 1922. And the police—my tongue can't bring itself to say it—the cops, police, who stopped us there on the streets, and, like, I have unregistered weapons there, we talked, I say, we're driving around, we're volunteers, thank you for your work. I mean, there was absolute unity, and there were no random people there; someone got a flat tire, someone stops and helps change it. A young man says, "And I'm here helping collect bodies from the street, taking them to the morgue, I can't sit at home. I don't know what to do, but I realize that I can do this. You can't do nothing right now," he says. And I remember it so clearly on Saltivskyi, that it was a completely random conversation, I never saw him again, but also. Well, a person just can't sit at home, they want to join in, do something, they aren't ready to leave and aren't ready to sit at home, hiding. I mean, these people were doing something in Kharkiv back then; in Kharkiv, back then, you could get from Kholodna Hora to somewhere in 11 minutes.

Speaker 2

You know, if you think about it, there are more people like that in Kharkiv now.

Speaker 1

They

Speaker 2

blurred.

Speaker 1

They

Speaker 2

blurred, that's the thing. Back then, it was mostly those people who consciously stayed to do something. Now in Kharkiv, as I understand it, over a million people are living there again, many young people, many children. I am saying all this without any judgment whatsoever. I think it's right that the city is alive. But I feel there really is this blurriness. And that, I believe, is the reason for this anxiety and uncertainty. That it is significantly easier for you to call someone unnecessary, redundant, misplaced, and ineffective than it was, say, four years ago. Do you somehow feel this change in attitudes toward one another?

Speaker 1

Yes, of course. But it seems to me that this isn't even a Kharkiv story, it's generally such an all-Ukrainian story. And I knew that maybe all this could be analyzed post factum. And all of this will fit within absolutely normal psychological frameworks. These are probably normal reactions for a society that has lived for so many years in a full-scale war. Yes, that's why.

Speaker 2

what we have,

Speaker 1

probably,

Speaker 2

Four and a half years of total war that affects everyone. It feels as if it's been a week. Like just yesterday we were delivering some boots or running the first beaters. But now practically everyone is scattered, everyone

Speaker 1

now regarding the units. Well yes, it is somehow difficult to assess all this. I also wouldn't venture to give this any assessment. It is what it is. But this division, of course, is very telling. And of course, various bots use it as a PSYOP tool. So that we

Speaker 2

Do not engage in such hypercriticism of our society.

Speaker 1

Let's focus on you.

Speaker 2

Specifically on you. You've published a book. This wonderful, fantastic, beautiful book has come out. Your previous book also came out during… No. Added "Meridian Chernivtsi". This added to the scale. The book was written during the war, which obviously testifies to some changes.

Speaker 1

Hurrah!

Speaker 2

Not "Meridian Chernovits". Vivat. I apologize.

Speaker 1

Despair

Speaker 2

terrible.

Speaker 1

Yes,

Speaker 2

Yes, yes. Vivat. And here are the poems, both new and old poems, and in one way or another new texts that bear witness to you, to what is happening to you. So, from what I see, and I even see in one of your interviews where you mention that at some point the poems disappeared, you stopped writing initially on one scale.

Speaker 1

Somewhere

Speaker 2

You mentioned this. Only then did poetry return.

Speaker 1

Rather this concerns songs, and specifically some… I mean, it was an irregular thing, but from time to time poems emerged. And they emerged already in March 1922. It was more like a kind of self-psychotherapy. I mean, when there are constantly stories like the one with the "Morgue". I mean Kharkiv, well, especially there, March, April, there were so many dead on the streets. And it's constant work with this. And it is very hard. Some were managed to be saved, someone had a tourniquet applied, there, the first tourniquets applied. It is absolutely some, well, such an experience, some, how do you say, "transcendental" in Russian. Like, and you don't know how to react to it. And at some point I wanted to knock back a glass of vodka, but by that moment I had already stopped using. And, by the way, on the 24th it had been 6 years since I stopped using. And for me, independence is precisely about

Speaker 2

dependence. That is, it is my

Speaker 1

barabanka. Yes, exactly, somehow it happened symbolically. In '20, on Independence Day, I went to the Carpathians and was somehow washing myself in a stream. And some kind of incredible transcendental experience occurred. And some realization came, where I am now with all these drugs, with alcohol. And I realized that everything is falling apart. It was somehow like it was made of sticks. I tried it that way. I think, for as long as I have the strength, that's how long I will stay stopped. So far, it's been enough for 6 years. It is very beautiful

Speaker 2

history.

Speaker 1

Well, that's true. Good, actually, it's beautiful, yes. And, perhaps, maybe, in order to somehow process this experience and not lose my mind, these poems emerged, into which I threw all this pain, all this lack of understanding, all these questions. These texts emerged somehow on their own. Usually, before falling asleep, something would emerge. I recorded it on my phone, in the recorder, and left it. And it happened like that from time to time. I know what I want to say. Look,

Speaker 2

Many people talk about this. It is a kind of very typical story for people in the arts. Someone wrote, and at some point, the language just faded away. Someone was involved in music, and at some point, the music disappeared. For some, theater vanished, for others, the ability to draw vanished. Then it all returned, you know, like a recovery. Truly, like a person who experiences some huge stress, a severe illness, for example, a stroke. And after that, you try to somehow work your body and your organs back into shape. But there is also one other thing that is personally very interesting to me. Do you feel yourself change, as a person who doesn't just create culture, but as a person who consumes culture? Did you start reading differently? Did you start listening to different music, or not?

Speaker 1

Well, music is a separate story. I still listen to music very cautiously. I started reading differently. Of course, this experience has changed. Changed.

Speaker 2

Authors, has the way of perception changed? Well, probably so. Well, not probably, but definitely.

Speaker 1

Yes. I've changed. And many things that used to touch me deeply now seem somehow too naive to me. And why don't they touch me now? I don't know. But many things touch me that perhaps didn't touch me then. Moreover, sometimes very simple things, on the verge of banality, but they overlap with my personal experience and that's it. I can burst into tears in some moments while reading. I mean, I reread it later. Well, it's just, like, there aren't any such constructions there that were close to me once, complex texts. There are some very simple, concise sentences that hit me, and that's it. And I, and all this thick skin as if peels off, and that's it. I stand there and cry. Well,

Speaker 2

Overall, I think you notice that this is, essentially, a characteristic of the Ukrainian reader or listener now. They cry and laugh. It is much simpler and easier than it was before '22. Even your recent concerts that I attended, both in Kyiv and in Drohobych. Thinking back to the audience—well, it is just as wonderful an audience as it was before, but it is more emotional, more open. You know, it strikes me that people are truly without skin. I don't know, do you notice it?

Speaker 1

Of course, I notice. I might be reading this differently, because I am terribly hungry for concerts, for performances. While volunteering, there were a few performances, and Lineia and I traveled abroad like that in '22. But it wasn't a systematic story. Overall, it didn't seem to me then that art, culture, the creation of some new products in this field, that they had any sufficient weight. It seemed to me that it mattered much more which gap I would close, what I would get and bring to the guys now. Yes. And when I went to fight, the situation changed quite quickly, and I again became terribly receptive to art. And I really want to perform now, and I am grateful to the command that it is now accommodating me. And I had a few performances there in July. Now there are a few performances; in a few days, TAS and I will perform at your book fair. And, God willing, in September in Lviv, we will be at the book forum. That is, all of this is thanks to the command, but also thanks to the fact that I again feel this desire. This is needed, right? This need.

Speaker 2

But this is a terribly interesting thing, you know, which many… for parents it is obvious, it doesn't need explaining, but many don't understand it. Like, why does a person need culture in a time of war. And here, you see, we all say, we have some ready-made answers, templates, I say, in order to maintain mental health, emotional balance, and so on. And I believe in it. And this

Speaker 1

I also see. Because I see.

Speaker 2

Can you explain what all this is for? Why are you reading now? What does this give you? Well,

Speaker 1

First of all, what you said, it's messing with my head. I understood. But in general, I understand that, well, like, maybe it's quite presumptuous, but, like, the small bit that I also contribute to the creation of Ukrainian-language culture, Ukrainian-language content, which someone there will listen to, someone will read and join in, and then they will turn to some original sources, to the classics. This is terribly important. And observing, again, in 1922-1923 Kharkiv became very Ukrainian-speaking, and now it's blurred again. Not as much, perhaps, but you can hear young people speaking Ukrainian much more often. So it's cool. I mean, all of this didn't go anywhere, it just blurred a little bit with people who returned, who don't have any such critical experience, who haven't re-evaluated, haven't re-thought the role of the Russian language. For them, it all remained normal. And I sometimes clash with someone in stores. And you clash? Yes, yes. Just recently, even from Slovyansk five days ago, with a boy in a cafe, who was arguing to me that it is his constitutional right to speak the Russian language. I say, buddy, at home, yes, whatever you want, but I didn't come to your home, I entered a cafe, I am addressing you in Ukrainian, and you answer me once, twice, in Russian, and it's unpleasant for me. And so we argued like that. And he

Speaker 2

Employee of this cafe?

Speaker 1

Understood. Well, and actually, such stories happen in Kharkiv from time to time, but not often. By the way, credit really must be given to Kharkiv; if you compare it with the pre-war, pre-full-scale Kharkiv, well, the changes are drastic and it is wonderful. Well, bye.

Speaker 2

Let's take a step back; essentially, this need for culture and, in principle, some changes. I also want to say, you and I mentioned at the beginning several of our musician acquaintances who are now also in the defense forces. And actually, you know, if you remember, remember our whole artistic environment of the late 90s, the 2000s, it was an unusually interesting scene in Kharkiv. Musical, literary, and especially theatrical. And now this scene is effectively shattered; it's gone. Well, that's logical. It's gone. Most of these people have left, or many are serving. Do you somehow think about it, is there hope for how it will be after the war? No, they will return, it will somehow be restored, everything—what it will be like. There is this attempt to peek through the keyhole now and see what is there in the future.

Speaker 1

I tried thinking about it several times, and then I realized that, well, I don't have any kind of picture. I mean, you know, sometimes it happens that you think about something, and some kind of picture emerges that you can trust. It might be realized later. Maybe not, but you have some kind of vision. But here, I have no vision at all. I don't know how it will be, and I'm not trying to think about it right now. It's very cool that Tyoma Vusyk and Nina Khyzhna returned to Kharkiv, and the nafta theater is happening now. It's very cool. Sometimes I'm envious that I don't have the opportunity to join. But really, even if I found some time to join some new production, it's unlikely my consciousness could… I mean, you need to enter a play with a clear mind, but my head is occupied with other things. I mean, I need to sort this out, and then, of course, with a light heart, I can try to return to theatrical activity. I mean, you now

Speaker 2

not to ask if you want to return to the theater?

Speaker 1

Yes, I want to, of course, but I won't return… I don't understand what doesn't

Speaker 2

now,

Speaker 1

but in the future. Of course, yes, I wanted to. And it was interesting. I have an idea for a one-person show. In who? Built on some monologues, perhaps, in a semi-documentary way, conduct a number of interviews with the guys…

Speaker 2

That is, everything relates to what you are now

Speaker 1

You say? Yes, I think it would be important. It probably wouldn't be a simple play, quite emotionally heavy, but I think it would be important. That is, to give power to the voices of ordinary guys who are fighting.

Speaker 2

I mean, you know, it's just such a thing—like, even in this book of yours, even at the level of vocabulary, war can be felt. It's not that it's felt, it's just there, right? It is there, and that's why in your songs—the latest songs—and in what you write, war is present. Accordingly, it's clear why it's there for you. You live in it, you see it, you—actually, you want it to end, you work toward that. And one way or another, now we probably can't separate military art from non-military art. Because, probably, everything that is being done is like that…

Speaker 1

or otherwise

Speaker 2

marked by this war. But, on the other hand, I don't know, whether you've noticed it or not, some people who, for example, read, listen, watch, they continue to try and avoid this military theme, military specifics, it's hard for them. It triggers them, it simply hurts them, they try to read something from before the war, watch some old movie and so on. Actually, do you see some possible conflict in this for the future? That everything we are currently writing, filming, singing, that it simply won't find an audience. Yes,

Speaker 1

This conflict is already present here right now. I mean, these people, who simply fanatically ignore the fact that the war is here with us, they are part of these draft evaders, they are part of those voices that increasingly undervalue the achievements of the military. I mean, remember, in '22, how a soldier would enter a pharmacy where there was a queue, how they would say, go ahead of the line. Go ahead of the line. I mean now it's not just about not going ahead of the line, but also this, like, wait. I mean the attitude toward the military has completely changed, and it's a very telling thing. I mean, well, what to call these people, I don't know, draft evaders probably… I'm a bit

Speaker 2

I see it differently after all, I meant something slightly different, probably again I wasn't quite

Speaker 1

I'll explain clearly. Are you talking about people of craftsmanship?

Speaker 2

No, I'm talking about people who support the army, who are volunteers, who donate, and who have someone in the army, but they cannot perceive art dedicated to the war. I see many such people. Women, men, children, teenagers. For them, it is simply too scary, too painful, too traumatic. And that is why they continue to read pre-war things, they continue to listen to something, listen to pre-war music. That's what I mean, look. And today, one way or another, well, everything cannot be avoided. You turn on the radio, songs about the war are playing. You go into a library, on the shelves, there are more and more and more books about the war. And at some point, the war will end. And one way or another, various things will be written. And will all this that is being written about the war, you know, not remain in some kind of specific lacuna on a separate shelf? No, hardly.

Speaker 1

this will remain. That is to say, it's still, well, hard to analyze now, where we would get some statistics on how many people who are involved in the war look it openly in the eye. And who tries to somehow abstract themselves. It's not clear what kind of standoff this is, but, like, about the fact that this experience, as if, somehow, maybe, like, shyly—I used the wrong word. Cancelled age? Yes, unlikely that it will be. Oh, by the way, I underst… well, I mean, such people as you are talking about, I almost couldn't wait, but recently I sent this track, which is dedicated to the memory of Anton Spitsyn, no, my words, I sent. It hadn't been published yet, but it had already been recorded. I sent it to a comrade, my friend Max Pristinsky, who volunteers, who is volunteering in Western Ukraine now. He says, we were driving in a car with a comrade, with whom we, he says, had traveled to Kherson repeatedly, and at the second verse he asked, turn it off, I feel physically shitty. This is what I'm bringing to your attention. This is the only time that such feedback has reached me. Overall, not that I'm playing coy now, but I haven't met such people. Well, I mean, somehow my bubble, well, I have a pretty limited bubble right now, but my bubble, well, as if it doesn't have such characters in it.

Speaker 2

Well, actually, I'll just, well, I'll explain that, as far as I've seen these people, they aren't passive regarding their country, they aren't, say, fanatics of Russia. No, no, they are actually fine, everything is normal with their civic position, but for them, well, obviously, you know, their empathy is too sharp, too sensitive. And they can't, for example, watch movies about war, or watch documentary footage of war. And they just, somehow, say, let me wait until later, I'll keep it in mind. But you know, there's another very interesting thing here, well, actually, you and I were talking about—I tried to say—about the future, about this cheat sheet, from where we can see what will happen with Kharkiv. And you, when you talk to your friends, brothers, sisters, do you notice what they think for themselves? Will they remain in the military? Do many of them want to stay in the army?

Speaker 1

No.

Speaker 2

Nobody

Speaker 1

doesn't want to? Not many. Well, I mean, I wouldn't say nobody, but, let's say, well, more than half, well, maybe around 75 percent, don't see themselves in the army in the future. And they also came from civilian life. Yes, yes. And they are quite effective warriors, but they don't see themselves staying. I think there's another little problem here, well, like, we're not engaging in criticizing our army, because there are many positive moments. Without solutions. But there are some moments, which, well, let's say, yes, many people with a civilian, well, with some effective managerial vision of conducting the war, they cannot fully unfold. After all, bureaucratic blinkers limit them, they get a slap on the wrist somewhere, they're told not to rush or something like that. That is, while understanding an effective formula, but seeing that it is impossible to fully implement it, very many people start to burn out. That is, by banging, banging on these doors, where it's not as if they were closed, but it's like it turned out softly. "We've heard you, thank you, that's it, we're implementing it," but, like, that's it. "We, we know better." And such things demotivate and slightly deprive one of strength and inspiration, because after all, we didn't come to build a career, we came to fight, to bring victory closer—again, with clichéd phrases. But, actually, we came to protect what is valuable to us. I never, in my whole life, 40-something years, imagined myself as a soldier, but the time came and that was it. I realized that it's impossible otherwise, impossible.

Speaker 2

Why I'm asking, you know, for me this is terribly some kind of very important, always very indicative story of a person entering the army today, these 4 and a half years of the great war, the full-scale war, because, after all, until somewhere around the second year it was different, and I think you remember how a person chooses for themselves, how they weigh it, or, conversely, don't weigh it and don't choose. And I think the way back will be no less important, how people will return, and some will want to leave, because it really is for many young people, men, women,

Speaker 1

the army became… Well, they opened up. Frequent to their world. I have acquaintances who really opened up. They became efficient and they are maximally engaged, and they feel this wholeness. And this inspires them. And they found themselves thanks to the war, I mean, it's a paradox, but that's how it is.

Speaker 2

is. Well, this is a time of very many paradoxes in general, and I think that we still have much to make sense of all this. And I hope that you and I will talk about this many more times. Both privately and on camera. And for now, listen, I want to thank you for this conversation, friends. And with us was Oleh Kadanov, an officer of the Second Separate General Special Purpose "Omega". Oleh Kadanov is a musician, an actor, a person whom many know, love, and are waiting for your concerts, for your evenings. At the "Mannerheim Line" concerts

Speaker 1

at that time. And also

Speaker 2

the "Mannerheim Line" concert. Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thank you.